International layovers

[nwaf16dude]

This is a good thread for this question too-

How do other airlines handle manning in far away destinations- swa is implementing an imbedded reserve day in a long layover- and when discussing it- very few of my peers knew how other airlines handle hawaii and other isolated destinations-
How do you deal with sick calls when a base is so far away?

Delta doesn't have any system in place like that. It just depends on the situation and destination. In a place like Paris or Narita, there are enough crews there that they can usually find someone to fill in for a sick call, but then they'll have to DH someone else over to cover. In a location where there is only one crew per day, you're pretty much stuck until they can DH someone in.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Geez, I'm slipping, that would certainly be an over the top use of that "warrior Spirit"!.......... Sitting around on a layover in Hawaii waiting to cover if someone gets sick.

You're not on the hook "during a layover" in Hawaii with this proposed embedded reserve language. What it means (at least the way I understand it, and all the details have yet to be fleshed out) that some lines have one duty period on one of the middle work days that's a reserve day. That means you'll do whatever flying gets you to Hawaii, the next duty period you're a reserve, and the following duty period you fly back to the mainland or however you fly back to your base. Your reserve duty period still pays 6 tfp, and unless one of the other guys on Hawaii that day (you probably won't be covering more than 5 or 6 Captains or FOs) calls out sick, you won't do anything for that day's pay. In fact, once the last flight leaves Hawaii, you're off the hook completely. There's nothing else they're allowed to use you for, other than for sick calls of those 5 or 6 guys.

Like I said, all the details haven't been covered yet, but it MAY actually be a really good deal: Fly to Hawaii, layover, cover reserve for a few hours on day two (for 6tfp), layover some more, then fly home on day three. A three day trip, paid for three days, but actually working only two of them. And there will probably only be one guy from each seat per day doing this--it remains to be seen if people will bid FOR this or avoid it. Some people might think it's a good deal to spend one work day in Hawaii, on the hook for a few hours (for over a thousand dollars), then go back to drinking mai-tais.

The reason this is a good idea from a company financial sense is because of what you guys already pointed out: the alternative is if someone is sick, you have to wait until you can deadhead someone in from the mainland, i.e. delay the flight for a minimum of 8 hours (depending on when the next flight to Hawaii is). That'll screw up not only your customers, but the rest of the crew's circadian rhythm and remaining work schedule for their pairing, that particular aircraft's flow (it's not making money anymore), and all the ripple effect felt by other crews, customers, and planes' flows that now get swapped down the road.

Does no other airline actually do anything like this? It seems to make sense for a remote location with only a few bodies there at any given time.


Bubba

 

[dicko]

Reserve day in the middle of a Hawaiian 3 day :laugh:

Isn't SWA required to pay you your daily guarantee anyway ? Even if they don't put a Reseve day in the middle of a 3 day trip.

Instead of going to the North shore on day two you're going to sit in that hotel. Instead of doing a helitour on day two, your sitting in the hotel. Instead of drinking by the pool with your GF or wife, you're sitting Reserve.

Ridiculous. You're about to mess up one of the last good deals in this industry.

 

[dicko]

What's the next step SWAPA ? Get the 787, fly it to Brazil and sit reseve in Rio ......

 

[SWA Bubba]

Reserve day in the middle of a Hawaiian 3 day :laugh:

Isn't SWA required to pay you your daily guarantee anyway ? Even if they don't put a Reseve day in the middle of a 3 day trip ?

Ridiculous.

What's ridiculous?

Of course they're required to pay daily gurantee anyway (5.0 tfp per individual day AND 6.5 tfp x number of days in a pairing). What I'm saying is a reserve duty period pays a minimum of 6.0 instead of the normal minimum of daily 5.0. Here's an example of a Hawaiian 3-day where this would pay more than ADG rig:

Day one: fly a short hop and a leg to Hawaii. Pay 8.1
Day two: embedded reserve day. Pay 6.0 to do nothing (or actual day's pay if you get used)
Day three: fly back to mainland and your base: Pay 8.3

Total: 8.1 + 6.0 + 8.3 = 22.4
ADG rig: number of days x 6.5 = 19.5, so the pay beats the rigs
If you flew two small legs (NOT reserve) on day two, say totalling 3.2 or so, that day would pay the minimum of 5.0. Then you'd have 8.1 + 5.0 + 8.3 = 21.4

The middle day of flying two short hops doesn't apply to Hawaii until and unless we start flying inter-island, but rather is just to illustrate how the rigs work.

Dude, you don't have to bid this, but I think some people may. Paid 22.4 for a 3-day, but you're only actually working two of those days. That's a pretty good deal, especially if you like hanging out in Hawaii. Remember, the reserve is only for sick calls of the 4 or 5 Captains (or FOs) that are actually on the island that day. It's not like a regular reserve where they use you for all kinds of random crap. And you can go back to drinking as soon as the last plane pushes.

We obviously don't have all the details yet, but this could be a very good thing. At the worst, I don't think it'll be a bad thing.

Bubba

 

[Andy]

Sarcastic bravado aside, thanks for the posts everyone... I suppose there are 'flip-flops', and there are 'flip-flops'. A report at 9am, followed by an 8 hr flight, get's one at the destination by 6pm. 24hrs later, the pilot departs at, say, 8pm and lands at 4am. Certainly tiring on the second leg, but with some coffee and perhaps an inflight rest, not an impossible task to achieve.

By contrast, a pilot who reports at 11pm, arrives at 7am, and then the next day, 24 hrs later, departs at 9am and flies until 5pm, is experiencing a greater circadian reversal than the pilot who is operating the first trip.

So the end result, perhaps, is the pilot flying the second trip is more fatigued than the pilot flying the first, despite there being the same amount of rest in between.

I love it when managers say, 'but you had 24hrs rest... Why aren't you rested?'... yea right.

Then add a commute on top of all this, and the stage is set for long term health problems due to chronic fatigue- not to mention flight safety issues due to subpar pilot performance.

There's no one single solution; everyone adjusts differently to changes in sleep patterns. I don't have much difficulty flipping between night & day but understand why some do.

It's like early vs late shows. Some love early showtimes. I hate them but can adjust to them.
Some hate redeyes. While they're not my favorite, I don't hate them.

 

[dicko]

What's ridiculous?

Of course they're required to pay daily gurantee anyway (5.0 tfp per individual day AND 6.5 tfp x number of days in a pairing). What I'm saying is a reserve duty period pays a minimum of 6.0 instead of the normal minimum of daily 5.0. Here's an example of a Hawaiian 3-day where this would pay more than ADG rig:

Day one: fly a short hop and a leg to Hawaii. Pay 8.1
Day two: embedded reserve day. Pay 6.0 to do nothing (or actual day's pay if you get used)
Day three: fly back to mainland and your base: Pay 8.3

Total: 8.1 + 6.0 + 8.3 = 22.4
ADG rig: number of days x 6.5 = 19.5, so the pay beats the rigs
If you flew two small legs (NOT reserve) on day two, say totalling 3.2 or so, that day would pay the minimum of 5.0. Then you'd have 8.1 + 5.0 + 8.3 = 21.4

The middle day of flying two short hops doesn't apply to Hawaii until and unless we start flying inter-island, but rather is just to illustrate how the rigs work.

Dude, you don't have to bid this, but I think some people may. Paid 22.4 for a 3-day, but you're only actually working two of those days. That's a pretty good deal, especially if you like hanging out in Hawaii. Remember, the reserve is only for sick calls of the 4 or 5 Captains (or FOs) that are actually on the island that day. It's not like a regular reserve where they use you for all kinds of random crap. And you can go back to drinking as soon as the last plane pushes.

We obviously don't have all the details yet, but this could be a very good thing. At the worst, I don't think it'll be a bad thing.

Bubba

So you're going to wipe out an entire day off in Hawaii and sit Reseve for 1 TFP ?
Less than an hours pay gained to sit Reserve for a day.

Correct me if I'm wrong please - a 3 day Hawaii trip that has no duty period on day two would pay 21.4 right ?

 

[Dan Roman]

You're not on the hook "during a layover" in Hawaii with this proposed embedded reserve language. What it means (at least the way I understand it, and all the details have yet to be fleshed out) that some lines have one duty period on one of the middle work days that's a reserve day. That means you'll do whatever flying gets you to Hawaii, the next duty period you're a reserve, and the following duty period you fly back to the mainland or however you fly back to your base. Your reserve duty period still pays 6 tfp, and unless one of the other guys on Hawaii that day (you probably won't be covering more than 5 or 6 Captains or FOs) calls out sick, you won't do anything for that day's pay. In fact, once the last flight leaves Hawaii, you're off the hook completely. There's nothing else they're allowed to use you for, other than for sick calls of those 5 or 6 guys.

Like I said, all the details haven't been covered yet, but it MAY actually be a really good deal: Fly to Hawaii, layover, cover reserve for a few hours on day two (for 6tfp), layover some more, then fly home on day three. A three day trip, paid for three days, but actually working only two of them. And there will probably only be one guy from each seat per day doing this--it remains to be seen if people will bid FOR this or avoid it. Some people might think it's a good deal to spend one work day in Hawaii, on the hook for a few hours (for over a thousand dollars), then go back to drinking mai-tais.

The reason this is a good idea from a company financial sense is because of what you guys already pointed out: the alternative is if someone is sick, you have to wait until you can deadhead someone in from the mainland, i.e. delay the flight for a minimum of 8 hours (depending on when the next flight to Hawaii is). That'll screw up not only your customers, but the rest of the crew's circadian rhythm and remaining work schedule for their pairing, that particular aircraft's flow (it's not making money anymore), and all the ripple effect felt by other crews, customers, and planes' flows that now get swapped down the road.

Does no other airline actually do anything like this? It seems to make sense for a remote location with only a few bodies there at any given time.


Bubba

Being paid to sit in Hawaii may sound like fun, I'm sure, but.........I would be surprised if they did that. The cost of doing it would be way more than what it would save. Intl flights really don't get delayed due to sick crew members that often and your less likely to get sick in Hawaii than say Asia. If everyday someone, as you said, is making a $1000 for sitting in Hawaii, along with the cost of a Hotel room, you would be cutting into a significant piece of what is going to be a pretty low yield market for you. You guys are going to have the burden of having to be the perceived bargain to attract customers and won't have the ability to sell higher yield seats. My guess is operating costs are going to be a bigger issue for you guys than schedule reliability.

 

[SWA Bubba]

So you're going to wipe out an entire day off in Hawaii and sit Reseve for 1 TFP ?
Less than an hours pay gained to sit Reserve for a day.

Correct me if I'm wrong please - a 3 day Hawaii trip that has no duty period on day two would pay 21.4 right ?

I'm not gonna' wipe out anything. It wouldn't work that way.

If you want to go to the north shore and do a helitour, then you're better off doing it on vacation. If Southwest didn't do the embedded reserve, you'd be coming back the next day, not sitting around on a 40-48 hour layover before returning on day three. They sure as hell aren't going to pay you ADG to do abolutely nothing on one of your three work days. The only reason you'd be there on-island for that long at all, would be to BE that one reserve Captain or FO.

Your notion of a "last good deal in this industry" is not one that has ever existed at Southwest: getting flight pay for drinking all day on the north shore. You're mixing other airlines' long international layovers with our better rigs--it ain't gonna' happen. Those industry-leading rigs exist to keep the company honest and efficient, and that's what keeps up profitable year after year--working efficiently. If we operate with our rigs and their long layovers, it would be a short trip to losing money.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

Dicko-
I'd ask around other airlines and see how senior hawaii trips tend to go- they generally pay crap and can go real junior.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Being paid to sit in Hawaii may sound like fun, I'm sure, but.........I would be surprised if they did that. The cost of doing it would be way more than what it would save. Intl flights really don't get delayed due to sick crew members that often and your less likely to get sick in Hawaii than say Asia. If everyday someone, as you said, is making a $1000 for sitting in Hawaii, along with the cost of a Hotel room, you would be cutting into a significant piece of what is going to be a pretty low yield market for you. You guys are going to have the burden of having to be the perceived bargain to attract customers and won't have the ability to sell higher yield seats. My guess is operating costs are going to be a bigger issue for you guys than schedule reliability.

Well, that's exactly what they're planning on doing now. Remember Dan, we're talking about only one Captain and one FO per day doing the embedded reserve thing. Six Captain tfp and six FO tfp, per day, is their idea of the cost of insurance to avoid the nightmare of what would happen if they did have to hold a plane for up to half a day to deadhead a replacement in (or at least what it would do to OUR schedule, the way we keep our crews and planes busy). Who knows, maybe after a while if no one calls in sick they'll reduce or change that, but for now, they think that's an important, and apparently affordable, "insurance policy."

Obviously, with the timing of flying to and from Hawaii, using 'regular' days in my example is a simplification. Maybe they'd have to have an extra half-day of crew rest in there if you return on a red-eye, and some of that rig would subsidize this "insurance" cost. Like I said, all the details have yet to be worked out. But that's the simple version.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

Bubba as usual speaks very well on these things, so I defer to him.
But please know 2 things- me and the majority of Swapa pilots are not part of the something for nothing crowd- I want to provide the company with efficiency- IMO it's job security I haven't had at other places- No problem earning my pay- and all is not relative. Further- I don't want customers in a super competitive new market being inconvenienced bc our pilot group won't allow a few to sit reserve in the middle of a 40 hour layover. Call me crazy.
As Dan said, the occasional sick call won't happen often, and when it does, I feel I'm paid and treated well enough to get the job done.
But I say this only having flown international at a charter- not a normal airline- whole different animal, and am still open and curious as to how other airlines do it. Not trying to reinvent the wheel or undercut the industry-
But most airlines don't have our rigs anymore either

 

[Jim]

Just like your claim that Delta's new contract adversely affects the rest of the industry, so would this. You can't keep bashing Delta guys for voting for what they feel is best for themselves and their airline when you feel is to the determent of the rest of the industry if you are going to do the same thing.

If SWA does this, every other management team is going to try and force it on their pilots. No one else wants it. So here's your chance to put up or shut up.

 

[waveflyer]

Really, Jim?

You validate a bankruptcy contract that expands outsourcing to 85,000lb, .82M/320kias, 90 seat jets configured to 76 by revenue additions of first class, JETS- and I'm supposed to take you seriously in comparing THAT with THIS?

Really?

Ok- since you're acting a little slight of mind, here is the difference-

Thousands of pilots without a vote on their destiny will NOT have to sit an embedded reserve day at swa. Everyone who will have to do it, will have had a vote in deciding what we do.
How many of the regional pilots, who's profits you siphon into your raises, will ever get a vote on their future? If they do take a stand, get a better contract, with reasonable pay, rest, and work rules- the whipsaw market will shrink them and another company will be grown from an obscure certificate of a shell corporation.

You sound absolutely stupid and naive comparing the two.

 

[ATRCA]

Sarcastic bravado aside, thanks for the posts everyone... I suppose there are 'flip-flops', and there are 'flip-flops'. A report at 9am, followed by an 8 hr flight, get's one at the destination by 6pm. 24hrs later, the pilot departs at, say, 8pm and lands at 4am. Certainly tiring on the second leg, but with some coffee and perhaps an inflight rest, not an impossible task to achieve.

By contrast, a pilot who reports at 11pm, arrives at 7am, and then the next day, 24 hrs later, departs at 9am and flies until 5pm, is experiencing a greater circadian reversal than the pilot who is operating the first trip.

So the end result, perhaps, is the pilot flying the second trip is more fatigued than the pilot flying the first, despite there being the same amount of rest in between.

I love it when managers say, 'but you had 24hrs rest... Why aren't you rested?'... yea right.

Then add a commute on top of all this, and the stage is set for long term health problems due to chronic fatigue- not to mention flight safety issues due to subpar pilot performance.

Indeed. I've done them both and I've always found domestic ops to be more fatiguing. I like the operational tempo of the Atlantic. It's not for everyone but I prefer it hands down!

As for the imbedded reserve deal...at CAL, no pilot can be made to sit reserve except in his domicile, it's that simple. If someone can't make the crossing, the company must find a replacement and DH'd them in to position. Additionally, we're not required to remain with the aircraft if there are any system wide reserves available. We can demand to be flown home on the next avail flight.