International layovers

[SWA Bubba]

Being paid to sit in Hawaii may sound like fun, I'm sure, but.........I would be surprised if they did that. The cost of doing it would be way more than what it would save. Intl flights really don't get delayed due to sick crew members that often and your less likely to get sick in Hawaii than say Asia. If everyday someone, as you said, is making a $1000 for sitting in Hawaii, along with the cost of a Hotel room, you would be cutting into a significant piece of what is going to be a pretty low yield market for you. You guys are going to have the burden of having to be the perceived bargain to attract customers and won't have the ability to sell higher yield seats. My guess is operating costs are going to be a bigger issue for you guys than schedule reliability.

Well, that's exactly what they're planning on doing now. Remember Dan, we're talking about only one Captain and one FO per day doing the embedded reserve thing. Six Captain tfp and six FO tfp, per day, is their idea of the cost of insurance to avoid the nightmare of what would happen if they did have to hold a plane for up to half a day to deadhead a replacement in (or at least what it would do to OUR schedule, the way we keep our crews and planes busy). Who knows, maybe after a while if no one calls in sick they'll reduce or change that, but for now, they think that's an important, and apparently affordable, "insurance policy."

Obviously, with the timing of flying to and from Hawaii, using 'regular' days in my example is a simplification. Maybe they'd have to have an extra half-day of crew rest in there if you return on a red-eye, and some of that rig would subsidize this "insurance" cost. Like I said, all the details have yet to be worked out. But that's the simple version.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

Bubba as usual speaks very well on these things, so I defer to him.
But please know 2 things- me and the majority of Swapa pilots are not part of the something for nothing crowd- I want to provide the company with efficiency- IMO it's job security I haven't had at other places- No problem earning my pay- and all is not relative. Further- I don't want customers in a super competitive new market being inconvenienced bc our pilot group won't allow a few to sit reserve in the middle of a 40 hour layover. Call me crazy.
As Dan said, the occasional sick call won't happen often, and when it does, I feel I'm paid and treated well enough to get the job done.
But I say this only having flown international at a charter- not a normal airline- whole different animal, and am still open and curious as to how other airlines do it. Not trying to reinvent the wheel or undercut the industry-
But most airlines don't have our rigs anymore either

 

[Jim]

Just like your claim that Delta's new contract adversely affects the rest of the industry, so would this. You can't keep bashing Delta guys for voting for what they feel is best for themselves and their airline when you feel is to the determent of the rest of the industry if you are going to do the same thing.

If SWA does this, every other management team is going to try and force it on their pilots. No one else wants it. So here's your chance to put up or shut up.

 

[waveflyer]

Really, Jim?

You validate a bankruptcy contract that expands outsourcing to 85,000lb, .82M/320kias, 90 seat jets configured to 76 by revenue additions of first class, JETS- and I'm supposed to take you seriously in comparing THAT with THIS?

Really?

Ok- since you're acting a little slight of mind, here is the difference-

Thousands of pilots without a vote on their destiny will NOT have to sit an embedded reserve day at swa. Everyone who will have to do it, will have had a vote in deciding what we do.
How many of the regional pilots, who's profits you siphon into your raises, will ever get a vote on their future? If they do take a stand, get a better contract, with reasonable pay, rest, and work rules- the whipsaw market will shrink them and another company will be grown from an obscure certificate of a shell corporation.

You sound absolutely stupid and naive comparing the two.

 

[ATRCA]

Sarcastic bravado aside, thanks for the posts everyone... I suppose there are 'flip-flops', and there are 'flip-flops'. A report at 9am, followed by an 8 hr flight, get's one at the destination by 6pm. 24hrs later, the pilot departs at, say, 8pm and lands at 4am. Certainly tiring on the second leg, but with some coffee and perhaps an inflight rest, not an impossible task to achieve.

By contrast, a pilot who reports at 11pm, arrives at 7am, and then the next day, 24 hrs later, departs at 9am and flies until 5pm, is experiencing a greater circadian reversal than the pilot who is operating the first trip.

So the end result, perhaps, is the pilot flying the second trip is more fatigued than the pilot flying the first, despite there being the same amount of rest in between.

I love it when managers say, 'but you had 24hrs rest... Why aren't you rested?'... yea right.

Then add a commute on top of all this, and the stage is set for long term health problems due to chronic fatigue- not to mention flight safety issues due to subpar pilot performance.

Indeed. I've done them both and I've always found domestic ops to be more fatiguing. I like the operational tempo of the Atlantic. It's not for everyone but I prefer it hands down!

As for the imbedded reserve deal...at CAL, no pilot can be made to sit reserve except in his domicile, it's that simple. If someone can't make the crossing, the company must find a replacement and DH'd them in to position. Additionally, we're not required to remain with the aircraft if there are any system wide reserves available. We can demand to be flown home on the next avail flight.

 

[General Lee]

Dicko-
I'd ask around other airlines and see how senior hawaii trips tend to go- they generally pay crap and can go real junior.

Depends if an allnighter is attached. If not, it goes senior. Ask the AK pilots. Most of their Hawaii trips are daytime arrivals and departures, and they are a lot more senior. DL has only a couple day trips to the West Coast that aren't allnighters, and they are senior.

Btw, you will be the first airline to have this, and it is another bad trend, just like your pay for training prior to initial ground school.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Thx GL- keep hunting for how swa is CURRENTLY dragging down the industry-
How many RJ's do you have flying for delta?

How many?

 

[General Lee]

Thx GL- keep hunting for how swa is CURRENTLY dragging down the industry-
How many RJ's do you have flying for delta?

How many?

A lot, but 150 fewer than current numbers by 2015. That's a good start, like you guys giving the AirTran guys a hug when you see them next. Mend that broken heart soon! Make them feel special.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah, you'd have given AT worse- so stop. Or continue if you'd have honestly given them DOH. Oh wait, I'm sure it'd been relative....
Don't you mean 80 less rj's? 150 less 50's, + 70 more -900's.
What's the math on that? 50x150= -7500 coach seats on the 50 seaters (great!)+4900 coach& 420 first class seats(not so great...)- so what's that? -2600 coach seats vs + 420 first class seats- what's the premium on 1st in an RJ? Seems like a fairly neutral deal GL-
Solidifying -900's as the industry standard precedent.
AA & UniCal really don't have a great argument to keep those size airplanes off- I hope they do, but I'm not riling anybody up or playing games when I say you've made that tougher.
Just reality.

 

[Jim]

Really, Jim?

You validate a bankruptcy contract that expands outsourcing to 85,000lb, .82M/320kias, 90 seat jets configured to 76 by revenue additions of first class, JETS- and I'm supposed to take you seriously in comparing THAT with THIS?

Really?

Ok- since you're acting a little slight of mind, here is the difference-

Thousands of pilots without a vote on their destiny will NOT have to sit an embedded reserve day at swa. Everyone who will have to do it, will have had a vote in deciding what we do.
How many of the regional pilots, who's profits you siphon into your raises, will ever get a vote on their future? If they do take a stand, get a better contract, with reasonable pay, rest, and work rules- the whipsaw market will shrink them and another company will be grown from an obscure certificate of a shell corporation.

You sound absolutely stupid and naive comparing the two.

There you go, everyone that doesn't agree with you is stupid and naive. Must be nice to be the only one who knows what is right or wrong.

It's all in the perspective. SWA pilots agreeing to sit reserve while on layover would affect me and my pilot group a lot more than Delta's new scope clause. And where I believe DALPA successfully reduced/limited the number of RJs that can fly for Delta, SWAPA might allow the weaken of work rules that international airlines have fought for years to achieve and maintain.

You pontificate about these great moral stands pilots should make for the good of the profession yet is seems to me you've never actually done it yourself.