Instrument long x-c with CFI??

[flyboy168]

Hi,

My student was wondering if he has to fly the instrument long x-c trip (250nm trip) with a CFI-I rather than a CFI. In looking at FAR 61-65(d)(iii), there are no mention of specific CFII requirement except for the word "instrument training".

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

 

[wheelsup]

Hi,

My student was wondering if he has to fly the instrument long x-c trip (250nm trip) with a CFI-I rather than a CFI. In looking at FAR 61-65(d)(iii), there are no mention of specific CFII requirement except for the word "instrument training".

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

The CFI can't give "instrument training" except for the 3 hours for a PPL license, as I understand it.

~wheelsup

 

[NoPax]

The CFI can't give "instrument training" except for the 3 hours for a PPL license, as I understand it.

~wheelsup

...& Commercial Certificate.

An examiner I talked to explained that a CFI can do IFR cross-countries with a Private Pilot to meet the 40 hours of actual/instrument time requirement, but the qualifying cross-country must have a CFII.

An easy way to think about it is - as a CFI you can give all training that was tested or could have been tested in the CFI PTS (provided you are endorsed or appropriately rated) - Flight Reviews and training for initial issuance of, Recreatational, Private, Commerical, CFI training, including high-altitude, high performance, complex, tailwheel if the CFI has those endorsements.

This doesn't include your Instrument Rating, as there is a separate instructor certificate with an instrument rating tagged on it - CFII. The requirements of 61.65 were heavily covered in my CFII checkride.

 

[minitour]

The long IFR cross country is considered training for an issuance of the instrument rating so yes...you've gotta have the CFII.

-mini

 

[Fly_Chick]

Not sure about that. Both

61.65 (d)(2)(i) (fifteen hours of instrument flight training)

and 61.65 (d)(2)(ii) (three hours in the past 60 days of prep)

state "from an authorized instructor" in this case 'authorized instructor' meaning CFI-I.

61.65(d)(2)(iii) does not mention "authorized instructor".

 

[wheelsup]

Not sure about that. Both

61.65 (d)(2)(i) (fifteen hours of instrument flight training)

and 61.65 (d)(2)(ii) (three hours in the past 60 days of prep)

state "from an authorized instructor" in this case 'authorized instructor' meaning CFI-I.

61.65(d)(2)(iii) does not mention "authorized instructor".

The words "instrument training" are lacking in the PPL 61 rules, leading me to believe a CFI isn't giving "instrument training" to a PPL student at all.

Also, quote 61.65 (d)(2)(iii) **IFR Xcty's**

For an instrument-airplane rating, instrument training on cross-country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one...blah blah blah

Under 61.195 - Flight Instructor limitations and qualifications

Quote 61.195 (c) **Instrument Ratings**

A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certficate and pilot certificate...blah blah blah.

'Nuff said. If you're giving instrument instruction, you need a CFI-I in my book. I wouldn't want to have the FAA examine my logbooks if I was this student (or instructor for sighing him off..).

~wheelsup

 

[flyboy168]

Thanks

Folks, thanks for the help. I have asked him to fly with a CFII to be on the safe side.

flyboy168

 

[wheelsup]

Folks, thanks for the help. I have asked him to fly with a CFII to be on the safe side.

flyboy168

Good call.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Folks, thanks for the help. I have asked him to fly with a CFII to be on the safe side.

Good idea. Complying with what the rules require for the qualifying flight is usually the safe side.

I don't understand why was there even a question about it.

 

[BLing]

If you dont have the rating on your CFI certificate, dont bother trying to teach it is a good way to avoid problems! However, I have them all so I dont care about issues like this!

 

[NoPax]

If you dont have the rating on your CFI certificate, dont bother trying to teach it is a good way to avoid problems!

Can a CFII give instrument training towards the instrument rating to a Private Pilot with a multi?

The answer depends on the ratings on the Commercial Certificate of the instructor. Assume the Instructor has commerical single, multi engine land, and an instrument rating, then yes. Without the multi, then no.

An MEI is required to give training for the original issuance of a multi-engine rating.

 

[NYCPilot]

You're definately going to need a CFII to conduct the 250 NM instrument cross-country training.

Any training that is required for a rating or certificate must be conducted by an appropriately rated instructor. Any instrument training that is used to fulfill the requirements for the IR will need to be conducted by a CFII.

 

[aucfi]

Bump & Question

You're definately going to need a CFII to conduct the 250 NM instrument cross-country training.

Any training that is required for a rating or certificate must be conducted by an appropriately rated instructor. Any instrument training that is used to fulfill the requirements for the IR will need to be conducted by a CFII.

Soooooooooo what if you have a weekend warrior VFR PP who wants to brush up on his instrument skills with absolutly no intent on getting his instrument rating. Can a CFI help him out or does it have to be a CFII?

 

[luvz2fli]

OK I understand that you have to have a CFII when training towards the original instrument ticket. My question is, do you need to be a CFII if you are flying with say a commercial pilot or an instrument pilot working on his commercial, and he is doing regular cross countries and they are IFR flight plans but in VFR conditions.

OK that came out wrong somewhat. OK the situation is this. The guy/girl is working on their Commercial rating or ATP or something in order to build time. They are flying cross countries in order to get the time up and they are filing IFR flight plans but flying in VFR conditions. Can you log dual given with this person if you aren't a CFII? AND/OR...Can you log dual given to all time except time which is flown in actual IFR conditions? Responses would be helpful and appreciated.

 

[Ole Red]

You guys need to read the regs again.

How much inst training needs to be given by a CFII for the inst rating?

How much could any run of the mill CFI give towards the inst. rating?

 

[luvz2fli]

You guys need to read the regs again.

How much inst training needs to be given by a CFII for the inst rating?

How much could any run of the mill CFI give towards the inst. rating?

If you have nothing to add knowledgewise to the thread, why post?

 

[Ole Red]

d) Aeronautical experience. A person who applies for an instrument rating must have logged the following:

(1) At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes for an instrument—airplane rating; and

(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include—

(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;



What is 40 - 15?

 

[Ole Red]

Answer.......


It is the amount of hours a CFI can instruct an instrument student and be perfectly legal.

40 hours total

15 hours from a II

A question the FAA examiner asked me last may during my CFI oral. If you'd like his name and # to the FSDO, pm me and I will give it to you. Maybe he could "contribute" smart ass.

 

[luvz2fli]

If we all understood the regs, we wouldn't have half the questions on here. Not to mention you being a smartass and saying people need to read the regs, if youre gonna be a smartass, expect a smartass remark in return. And since you're so wise and knowledgable, answer my original post.

 

[Ole Red]

I guess my line of thinking is this....

If I have a question regarding regs, I get the regs out and read them to see if I can answer the question myself. The only reason I said to read the regs is because that is the only place to find the right answer in the first place. not to be an ass. Just because a bunch of people on the message board say it is so, doesn't mean it is. I was in the same boat myself during my CFI oral, and I looked up the answer and we talked about it. As a CFI, you CAN give instrument training to a student going for his/her instrument rating. Only 15 hours of the 40 total has to be given by an "authorized" or II.
Had I not been asked this question by the FAA, I wouldn't know the answer myself.

 

[luvz2fli]

I guess my line of thinking is this....

If I have a question regarding regs, I get the regs out and read them to see if I can answer the question myself. The only reason I said to read the regs is because that is the only place to find the right answer in the first place. not to be an ass. Just because a bunch of people on the message board say it is so, doesn't mean it is. I was in the same boat myself during my CFI oral, and I looked up the answer and we talked about it. As a CFI, you CAN give instrument training to a student going for his/her instrument rating. Only 15 hours of the 40 total has to be given by an "authorized" or II.
Had I not been asked this question by the FAA, I wouldn't know the answer myself.

OK, cool deal. Thanks for your response. We all now know that if training for the instrument ticket, you need a CFII for the 15 hours. As for the FARs, I try and read and understand them but they are so loose for interpretation in so many cases that it's tough to know what they mean. For example the whole back seat CFI deal that's on another thread. Very open to interpretation IMO based on the regs. Also can somebody please answer my post about giving dual? I'd like to try and fly with a guy and a response to this would be appreciated.

 

[Ole Red]

I agree about the regs. They can seem so simple and yet be so confusing at the same time. And actually, even though the examiner agreed with me, if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter what they said at the FSDO (in court) they could still nail me.
Personally, I agree with what most said in the above posts. There is a reason for the CFII. I am not a II and I don't plan on giving instrument instruction to any instrument students. I'll save that for when I get my II.

Later

 

[NoPax]

The instrument student needs 15 hours minimum from a CFII...the rest of the time can be with a safety pilot

Safe...probably not. Legal...yes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Answer.......


It is the amount of hours a CFI can instruct an instrument student and be perfectly legal.

Nope. Sorry, but if you want to get technical about it, that's the wrong answer.

40-15 is the minimum amount of actual or simulated instrument time, exclusive of required instrument instruction, that an instrument student must accumulate in order to qualify to take the instrument practical test.

It can be accumulated via training with a CFII, training with a CFI, or tooling along under the hood in the afternoon with a friend who got his private ticket that morning.

A CFI (no II) can instruct an instrument student and be perfectly legal for an unlimited number of hours, not just 25. But whether 1 or 2000, none of it is considered "instrument training" that counts toward the training time required for the instrument rating.

Read the reg again more carefully next time.

 

[Ole Red]

Thanks Mark.

So if I understand you right, that time flying with the CFI (say all 25 of the remaining required instrument time) would NOT count as instrument instruction, and just count as plain old hood time.??

On the other hand, if I'm understanding, the CFI could not log that time as dual given?? Even if he is teaching, as far as the FAA is concerned, he's just a super qualified safety pilot??

 

[aucfi]

On the other hand, if I'm understanding, the CFI could not log that time as dual given??

You log it as dual given when giving private students their 3 hours of hood time so why not when its the average joe blow not seeking his IR. Dont forget the PIC either....

 

[Ole Red]

I was talking about a student flying towards his IR.

 

[nosehair]

On the other hand, if I'm understanding, the CFI could not log that time as dual given?? Even if he is teaching, as far as the FAA is concerned, he's just a super qualified safety pilot??

No, Red. A CFI can log dual given on an instrument training flight. It just won't count for any of the 15 hours required for the IR. And the instrument X/C is required to be with a double I. But all training given in a single engine airplane (if that is what the CFI has) can be dual. It just can't count towards any minimum time requirement that requires additional ratings or experience. For instance, a CFI applicant must be trained by a 2-year. That means a 2-year must do enough training to sign him off, but a junior CFI can give instruction towards that CFI, it just won't count as that specific kind of training, but the CFI can log it.

 

[Ole Red]

Got it. Thanks

 

[midlifeflyer]

So if I understand you right, that time flying with the CFI (say all 25 of the remaining required instrument time) would NOT count as instrument instruction, and just count as plain old hood time.??

Nosehair answered your question. This is just one of those semantic "technicalities."

The work done with the one-I is technically =not= instrument instruction (although definitely dual as nosehair explained). As I said, it's a semantic technicality, but "instrument training" and "instrument instruction" are buzzwords in the FAR. When you see those phrases in an FAA reg, they mean "instrument training by a CFII." Notice that the hood work done for the private certificate does =not= use either phrase.

Sometimes helps to know this when reading the regs.