Informational Stapling Compass to Delta Website

[DYLIN]

In the end, the answer proved much simpler, didn't it?

Two old threads you've now dug up, before the MECs have finished meeting to discuss the future about the flowdown and flowup.

Why don't you just wait like everyone else?

 

[flyboyike]

Two old threads you've now dug up, before the MECs have finished meeting to discuss the future about the flowdown and flowup.

Why don't you just wait like everyone else?

Are you suggesting mainline pilots will be willing to flow down to Trans States?

 

[jonjuan]

Are you suggesting mainline pilots will be willing to flow down to Trans States?

Good question. What are possible bases, aircraft, and most importantly, pay scales? Down to a 170 is one thing, to a 15 year old crj-200 is something entirely different.

 

[rumrnr78]

So, does this staple vindicate the RJDC? Just curious as I am (thank God) no longer a 121 pilot.

 

[Ad Lib]

What staple?

If Compass were stapled, it would vindicate Dave Behnke, the 24 and those who dreamed up the concept of unifying workers to bargain collectively.

 

[Ad Lib]

CPZ can't be sold. If CPZ is sold, there are very strict penalties involved. I barked up this tree many times when CPZ was being created.

Somehow that loose end got tidied up.

 

[Full of LUV]

So, does this staple vindicate the RJDC? Just curious as I am (thank God) no longer a 121 pilot.

First of all... there is no staple.....

Second.... RJDC would have never gone for a staple

RJDC was about the regional jet pilots wanting mainline scope abolished so that they may grow the cancer from within until it became so big as to overtake the mainline.

In a nutshell, they believed that allowing a division of "their union" ALPA, to argue to limit "their flying" was counterproductive at best.

Actually a valid point, but if you join a union that is bent on maintaining mainline, career type pilot jobs and then accept employment that undercuts that overriding union goal, you have to accept that you will not be equally represented.

 

[flyboyike]

RJDC was about the regional jet pilots wanting mainline scope abolished so that they may grow the cancer from within until it became so big as to overtake the mainline.

Seems to be happening even without RJDC's help, doesn't it?

 

[samballs]

RJDC should have just sat idle, DL pilots seem to think scope is bad too

 

[HA25]

I just got a settlement check, and ACL65Pilot claims the settlement agreement is affecting DALPA scope....not perfect, but money well spent....:uzi:

Any talk of staple back in '99 when DAL bought ASA lead to a lynching by the "DOH" crowd as I recall.. We had the chance to end the RJ whipsaw once and for all at that time, but RJ (and ATR) captains felt they were entitled to 757 left seats since "I've been flying Delta passengers for 10 years!" was the state of mind!

At least the Compass guys have half a brain.. even if it's wishful thinking that the DAL MEC cares anything about the junior pilots enough to do this.

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

My other fear is that if we staple Compass, the Comair pilots will use this as a springboard to once again try and force their way on to our list, and I want no part of that.

Le t them come as long as it is a staple behind Compass and they don't pull that greedy expectation like last time. No way should one of their 25 year Captains get 25 years of bidding seniority like they wanted 7-8 years ago.

 

[Ad Lib]

There was no DOH demand. Never happened.

If you claim it did happen, prove it. Reference one MEC publication which had any reference what so ever to a demand for DOH seniority published by an ASA, or Comair pilot. If it happened, some evidence must exist, somewhere.

DOH was (and is) a lie which was used to distract from the fact the mainline negotiators were outsourcing jobs. DOH was used to build mistrust and bigotry towards pilots who had no seat at the negotiating table. It was a distraction.

The only DOH merger proposal in Delta's recent history was taken by f-NWA pilots. Even they did not get it.

So why are some pilots still angry about something that had no chance of success if it did happen and as a matter of historical record, never even happened? ... and don't come back on here saying "I heard a guy in the crew room who heard JC Laswon's sister at the 31 Flavors say ...." If it was real it would have left a paper trail and there is none.

Fools, damned fools, are the reason we've outsourced half of our profession. Motivated by misinformation and bigotry they waste time attacking straw men, while ratifying contracts which outsource more and more jobs.

 

[Ad Lib]

It was a decade ago ...

More importantly, how did your Reps vote on the decision to hold Compass pilots in D-ALPA? What input did you give your Reps on the Compass divestiture? Now, what feedback are you giving your Reps as to the negotiation of job protection provisions of your current PWA?

 

[PCL_128]

You're still regurgitating this garbage? Didn't you get the memo? The Ford-Cooksey litigation died a rather unceremonious death about three years ago. Let it go. You guys went down in flames, and rightfully so.

 

[Ad Lib]

PCL,

"you guys" ? I thought the litigation was a bad idea. There is a huge difference between understanding something, condoning it, supporting it, or participating in it.

Don't appreciate the use of unrelated and untrue invective, but hey, folks like you help maintain the high standard fightinfo is known for.

 

[Ad Lib]

DL pilots seem to think scope is bad too

Not true.

The mainline pilots at DL (NWA, US Air and United) have been taught to think of scope in economic terms, as something to be bargained with. When management wishes to violate scope, they see it as a bargaining event.

Pilots at Southwest, CAL & American seem to better understand scope is a job protection device.

The Delta pilots say the lack of furloughs (currently) and their contract justifies their position. They have created economic disincentives to furlough pilots.

It is a different approach to scope. Both camps think they have it right. Bankruptcy negotiations involved a lot of horse trading using credits for different parts of the contracts involved. It changed the thinking of those involved.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not true.

The mainline pilots at DL (NWA, US Air and United) have been taught to think of scope in economic terms, as something to be bargained with. When management wishes to violate scope, they see it as a bargaining event.

Pilots at Southwest, CAL & American seem to better understand scope is a job protection device.

The Delta pilots say the lack of furloughs (currently) and their contract justifies their position. They have created economic disincentives to furlough pilots.

It is a different approach to scope. Both camps think they have it right. Bankruptcy negotiations involved a lot of horse trading using credits for different parts of the contracts involved. It changed the thinking of those involved.

Ad Lib, if American pilots "get it" and Delta pilots don't "get it" regarding scope...why is Delta hiring and American has over a thousand pilots on furlough and hiring is not in sight for many years...How have they done better with "job security"?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Any talk of staple back in '99 when DAL bought ASA lead to a lynching by the "DOH" crowd as I recall.. We had the chance to end the RJ whipsaw once and for all at that time, but RJ (and ATR) captains felt they were entitled to 757 left seats since "I've been flying Delta passengers for 10 years!" was the state of mind!

At least the Compass guys have half a brain.. even if it's wishful thinking that the DAL MEC cares anything about the junior pilots enough to do this.

FMS-Speed, you still don't get it. We didn't demand DOH...We simply wanted to be treated fairly. DOH wasn't fair and a pure staple isn't fair. I'm glad it never happened....I think ASA has a bright future with Skywest. I would have been furloughed for many years with a pure staple. Instead I enjoyed a good schedule and a good paycheck during those years...Why would I want to give that up?

 

[JoeMerchant]

There was no DOH demand. Never happened.

If you claim it did happen, prove it. Reference one MEC publication which had any reference what so ever to a demand for DOH seniority published by an ASA, or Comair pilot. If it happened, some evidence must exist, somewhere.

DOH was (and is) a lie which was used to distract from the fact the mainline negotiators were outsourcing jobs. DOH was used to build mistrust and bigotry towards pilots who had no seat at the negotiating table. It was a distraction.

The only DOH merger proposal in Delta's recent history was taken by f-NWA pilots. Even they did not get it.

So why are some pilots still angry about something that had no chance of success if it did happen and as a matter of historical record, never even happened? ... and don't come back on here saying "I heard a guy in the crew room who heard JC Laswon's sister at the 31 Flavors say ...." If it was real it would have left a paper trail and there is none.

Fools, damned fools, are the reason we've outsourced half of our profession. Motivated by misinformation and bigotry they waste time attacking straw men, while ratifying contracts which outsource more and more jobs.

Well said...As Twain said: "A lie can travel halfway round the world while the truth is putting on it's shoes".

 

[HA25]

FMS-Speed, you still don't get it. We didn't demand DOH...We simply wanted to be treated fairly. DOH wasn't fair and a pure staple isn't fair. I'm glad it never happened....I think ASA has a bright future with Skywest. I would have been furloughed for many years with a pure staple. Instead I enjoyed a good schedule and a good paycheck during those years...Why would I want to give that up?

For the betterment of our profession.. Had we all (the "Commuter" guys) come together and sued ourselves into a staple (thereby getting the majority of the support of mainline pilots)... then this mess we're in today wouldn't exist, where 1/2 of domestic flying is done on RJ's at 1/2 the pay rates of mainline.. We replaced good mainline jobs with RJ's..

We got played by the ATA and airline managers.... they hung a carrot in front of a bunch of kids and told them of a "pilot shortage" so they all went into hawk so as to pay for their piloty mills... 22 years olds were flooding the new hire classes and all the while mainline was shrinking.

Factoring in the merger, DAL is smaller today than it was when I came to ASA in 1998... Imagine a world where one DAL contract covered the pay of all pilots flying "Delta" passengers... I like that better than the model we have today with 7 or 8 different separate seniority lists all fighting over the scraps of growth.

This is why.