Industry 70 seat rates

[mavdog]

Delta paid CMR and ASA as wholly owned subsidiaries. USAir paid ALG and PDT as wholly owned subsidiaries. How does Horizon get paid? Who pays them? I don't know for sure, but I would bet it is a fee-for departure scheme paid by Alaska. If you know for sure, I would be interested in finding out.

Horizon gets paid from the passengers that fly on the airline! I know it's a hard concept to swallow, but it's true. They are a self-sustaining airline that can survive my themselves. Granted some of the airline functions have been combined to Air Group to help save money for both Alaska and Horizon, the two companies could fully function, and make money separately. Not your typical regional.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Tomct]

Joe, I don't believe that Horizon will have to worry about that! They have been able to stay clear of it so far. If we don't get a pay raise, then the last 4 years have been for NOTHING!! That is not acceptable! They have been making HUGE profits and laughing it up all the while WE have not been getting any payraises.
Correct me if I am wrong, but does'nt that 10 yr contract that SK just signed with DAL explicitly say ASA to fly 80-85% of the flying out of ATL? If that is the case, we are holding all of the marbles. They might put all of us in ATL, but we will continue to OWN ATL!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Correct me if I am wrong, but does'nt that 10 yr contract that SK just signed with DAL explicitly say ASA to fly 80-85% of the flying out of ATL? If that is the case, we are holding all of the marbles. They might put all of us in ATL, but we will continue to OWN ATL!!

Yes it does IF our costs stay in line. If our costs get out of line, then that percentage doesn't apply. If our costs are the highest, there is NOTHING to stop SKYW management from replacing us with SKYW, and their is nothing to stop Delta from replacing SKYW. We don't "OWN" ATL as much as ALPA would have you believe.

 

[QCappy]

Ok. Let me settle your score. Here is how Horizon makes its money (this is from 2004, the most recent info I could find). This is copied from Horizon's Employee website:

For every dollar that Horizon makes it comes from:

1. 55¢ Horizon native-network flying
Revenue earned from Horizon’s traditional revenue-at-risk markets.
2. 32¢ Network development and harmonization flying
Revenue earned from Horizon’s harmonization markets and high-Alaska-connection routes.
3. 9¢ Frontier JetExpress flying
Revenue earned from Horizon’s Frontier JetExpress contract.
4. 3¢ Other
Aircraft manufacturer credits, ground handling revenue, excess-baggage fees and nonrevenue fees.
5. 1¢ Freight and mail
Goldstreak and mail revenues and freight handling services.


.....So is Horizon different?.....I think so!

 

[OCP]

Not to bring this back to the 70 seat pay rate thing or anything, but...

Have you noticed that the pay cut the company wants from the FOs puts them below the 50 seat rate? 4 year scale is 35.88 on the 50 right now. The preposed for the 70 is 34.80. What is the deal with that? Its not even a one rate pay scale.

Edit: And lets not forget that Skywest's base pay rate for their 4 year FOs (for example) is $37. So why, ASA, are we going to allow you to pay us less than what Skywest gets paid?

 

[f/o(forever)]

Where are all the whining gayjet guys now? I don't think they are responding to this thread. Oh thats right, I forgot they don't have a contract! And they must be too ashamed to respond!! You better lower that "average" pay since they did!!

 

["GO AROUND"]

You beat me to it OCP. I don't even think the company knows how stupid that makes them look to us by putting that out. Not one cent less than SKW rates work rules etc... I will not vote for a contract that is less than our sister airline has in total compensation, not just payrates. Managment wants paycuts from every pilot not just the 70 guys in the things they are cutting from our current contract. The loss of underblock pay would not be replaced by a 1.6% raise, not even close.

We have only had two opening salvo's in the money sections so there is more to fire back and forth.

John, where would you have started the proposal for pay. You keep saying that you don't agree with the paycuts, but does that mean you are willing to take the proposal the company is offering? You keep saying that our MEC/CNC is wrong but you never say what your answer is that is so much better.

I will sure bring up all these points in the P2P call tonight cause I don't understand everything either.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

none.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

The Comair rates are wrong. They haven't taken a paycut to those rates listed, and reamain at the frozen rates of june '05.

New pay cut talks will resume soon.

The current rates are...

70 seat 50 Seat
yr---CA----CA
3----71----65
5----75----69
6----78----71
7----80----72
8----82----75
9----85----77
10---89----80
max
18--114---101

70 seat--50 seat
yr---FO----FO
1----24----24
2----41----38
3----43----40
4----44----41
5----45----42
max
8----51----46

 

[~~~^~~~]

deleted

 

[Ready2Fly]

I'm amazed that you really believe the rjdc is responsible, except for further dividing the pilot groups! I guess you believe the rjdc invented the wheel too??


How goes the spending spree??
We all know that the rjdc's membership is filled with the "undesirables" of aviation....No college degree, DUI's, violations. That's why you sought the monetary claims. You wanted something you didn't deserve, and thought the lawsuit was your claim to money!
The rjdc has made you and the likes of Dan Ford famous in this industry. Who else can you say has a name in this industry so negative besides the likes of Carl Ichan or Frank Lorenzo. The only difference was they were management scum, you guys are just scum!
737

And the fat, overweight commuter slobs.

 

[surplus1]

We all know that the rjdc's membership is filled with the "undesirables" of aviation....No college degree, DUI's, violations. That's why you sought the monetary claims. You wanted something you didn't deserve, and thought the lawsuit was your claim to money!

I'm sure I don't count but I didn't know any of those things about RJDC folks. Shouldn't you have said "you know" instead of "we all know"?

You're really good at this stuff. I'll bet somewhere in your family history you must be a close relative of Joseph Goebbles for you know his philosophy well - "Propaganda has only one object - to conquer the masses. Every means that furthers this aim is good; every means that hinders it is bad."

You will stop at nothing to spread false information. It speaks volumes about your character. Where was it that you lost your integrity, again?

Tell us about your own stellar background won't you? Whee did you get your Phd - Ivy League? Is Delta your first and only job? Were you so "desirable" (as opposed to undesirable) that they singled you out from the chaff? Where'd you fly all those tiny airplaines in your profile? How did you manage to avoid contamination of association and not become "scum" yourself? I'm sure we'd all love to know just what makes you so superior, so special - it would be a great benefit to all the peons - share with us. I'd love to be able to look up to you; tell me why I should. Change my mind, please.

Right now I see you as a young grasshopper that's way too big for his britches and whose most outstanding features are a very large mouth and a much smaller brain. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Trust me, I really care. I have a burning desire to know why I should disassociate myself from the "scum" and join forces with my betters. Surely you can spend a moment of time to brief me on why that would be better for you.


"Pro
"Propaganda has only one object - to conquer the masses. Every means that furthers this aim is good; every means that hinders it is bad."paganda has only one object - to conquer the masses. Every means that furthers this aim is good; every means that hinders it is bad."

 

[surplus1]

Hey Fins,

Some unsolicited advice: Never let a goat get your goat; in procreates genetic abnomalies.

 

[737 Pylt]

I'm sure I don't count but I didn't know any of those things about RJDC folks. Shouldn't you have said "you know" instead of "we all know"?

I see the AARP meeting let out early today, did you remember to take your meds old man!?

You're really good at this stuff. I'll bet somewhere in your family history you must be a close relative of Joseph Goebbles for you know his philosophy well - "Propaganda has only one object - to conquer the masses. Every means that furthers this aim is good; every means that hinders it is bad."

You're even better...I bet you have really long arms to pat yourself on the back the way you do. I bet you tell all your first officers just how great you are.

You will stop at nothing to spread false information. It speaks volumes about your character. Where was it that you lost your integrity, again?

When did senility set in to you gramps?? This is one reason alone I don't support the change of the age-60 rule!

T

tell us about your own stellar background won't you? Whee did you get your Phd - Ivy League? Is Delta your first and only job? Were you so "desirable" (as opposed to undesirable) that they singled you out from the chaff? Where'd you fly all those tiny airplaines in your profile? How did you manage to avoid contamination of association and not become "scum" yourself? I'm sure we'd all love to know just what makes you so superior, so special - it would be a great benefit to all the peons - share with us. I'd love to be able to look up to you; tell me why I should. Change my mind, please.

Sure, tell me where I can meet up with you, then you can look up to me!
I'll bet you were one of the catalysts hi-fiving and butt slapping your co workers in the crew room about the "DOH" integration when comair was purchased! Sorry you have a miserable career (you keep blaming on DL) , but don't worry, we'll soon be rid of the "anchor" of rj's that has plaged our beloved airline into the debt ridden shambles it is today! When you are owned by Mesa, you can blame them for all your problems!

]Right now I see you as a young grasshopper that's way too big for his britches and whose most outstanding features are a very large mouth and a much smaller brain. Tell me why I'm wrong.

LMAO! Tough talk from an old man behind a keyboard. You're wrong because you've never been right about anything pops! I see you as a bitter old man blaming the world on your miserable career! You probably have no education, are stuck in a go nowhere job and blame the world for all your problems. I almost feel sorry for you....NOT!

Trust me, I really care. I have a burning desire to know why I should disassociate myself from the "scum" and join forces with my betters. Surely you can spend a moment of time to brief me on why that would be better for you.

If you can't figure out why the rjdc is trying to kill this industry, I gave you way to much credit than you deserve! They have carved a niche in this industry that is killing aviation faster than you are losing hair!


"Pro
"Propaganda has only one object - to conquer the masses. Every means that furthers this aim is good; every means that hinders it is bad."paganda has only one object - to conquer the masses. Every means that furthers this aim is good; every means that hinders it is bad."[/quote]

 

[Sinca3]

The Comair rates are wrong. They haven't taken a paycut to those rates listed, and reamain at the frozen rates of june '05.

New pay cut talks will resume soon.

The current rates are...

70 seat 50 Seat
yr---CA----CA
3----71----65
5----75----69
6----78----71
7----80----72
8----82----75
9----85----77
10---89----80
max
18--114---101

70 seat--50 seat
yr---FO----FO
1----24----24
2----41----38
3----43----40
4----44----41
5----45----42
max
8----51----46

Props.....Thanks for getting the REAL #'s up there. Even at their pay freeze at my year and rate a Comair pilot makes $7 more an hour than me!

 

[surplus1]

Pssst - 737 Pylt - You didn't answer the questions. No guts?

I don't expect you to believe it but the truth is I wouldn't work for your airline; I don't like your "culture". Never lived on a plantation; don't want to.

PS. - Mesa doesn't want us -- they're afraid we'll take over.

 

[737 Pylt]

Pssst - 737 Pylt - You didn't answer the questions. No guts?

Psst-Surplus. Take the hearing aids off...I did answer the question! Re read the post. And I'll stop by wherever you want to talk about my guts!
737

 

[surplus1]

MCO - Hyatt rotunda - next Sunday - high noon. Your choice of weapons.

 

[737 Pylt]

MCO - Hyatt rotunda - next Sunday - high noon. Your choice of weapons.

LOL! After re reading my post, it was childish, and for THAT, I apologize!
It would be like beating up my grandfather.
737

 

[JoeMerchant]

John, where would you have started the proposal for pay. You keep saying that you don't agree with the paycuts, but does that mean you are willing to take the proposal the company is offering? You keep saying that our MEC/CNC is wrong but you never say what your answer is that is so much better.

I will sure bring up all these points in the P2P call tonight cause I don't understand everything either.

Go Around,
4 years ago, I advocated taking CMR payrates plus 1% and their B fund and moving on. Now I don't believe that is attainable anymore. I personally would focus on job security at this point and live to fight another day. In my opinion mistakes were made and we must move on.

As far as "my answers", I posted some of them on another post. They don't involve this contract negotiations - they are all strategic proposals to plan for the future. The battle is lost, let's regroup and come up with a new plan.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I will sure bring up all these points in the P2P call tonight cause I don't understand everything either.

By the way, what did you learn from the P2P call?

 

[ASARJMan]

Go Around,
4 years ago, I advocated taking CMR payrates plus 1% and their B fund and moving on..

You did? How come no one remembers you stating that? Where be your proof ?

 

[737 Pylt]

You did? How come no one remembers you stating that? Where be your proof ?

Just look up the rjdc party line....They'll tell you everything and anything you want to hear! They're REALLY good at spinning the truth!
737

 

[EMB to CRJ]

Interesting comparison, however you forgot to add in Horizon's 70 seat payrate. If you are going to look at the 70 seat averages then include ALL of the 70 seat payrates. I find it amusing that people dont include Horizon's payrates. Is it because you think they make too much?

Horizon is a pre 9/11 not a post in a very limited market. According to http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/horizon-air-2005030572.htm
the upgrade time it 7 years and there are only 19 crj 700 so sure the rate may be higher but better to look at the fo dash 8 rate. I sure don't want to spend 7 years as a fo to have rate on the 700 that I will never fly. Remember 10% raise to a fo is 4 dollars an hour left seat is 20 and you start working on the time to go some place where you will be able to make good money.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

It appears to me that the current ASA management proposal has higher 70 seat rates than SKYW is currently getting - is this true?

 

[QCappy]

the upgrade time it 7 years

Actually it is below six years now and will be decreasing.

 

[Bizjet]

You did? How come no one remembers you stating that? Where be your proof ?

JB doesn't need proof. He makes whatever statements he desires to fill his revisionist history lessons he post at will with no accountability. When he and his woman friend were on the negotiating team in '98' they couldn't get along with the MEC leadership because the two of them were hell bent giving in to the company in order to gain favor with management. They had to be kept under direct supervision. There zeal to give back what they were sent to negotiate resulted in a Chief Pilot position as a reward for his woman friends selling out. The company didn't offer him a position because even ASA management has a minimum standard. The two of them have been carrying the company's water now for a few years. They did manage to bring back a pay for training reimbursement that assisted J Boy in getting his "pay for training money" back even though they were never authorized by the MEC to negotiate that. They are a team of TWO. They will always do what’s in their own best interest and can't be trusted. JB is a blamer. He will always find someone who is responsible for his misery.

 

["GO AROUND"]

By the way, what did you learn from the P2P call?

I have stated some of it already, but I'll repost what I remember cause I don't have my notes.

1. The company was the one who walked away from the table after they threatened that it would come to a strike because they will not come up any more on the pay rates. The whole time the CNC had been coming down off our proposal. They left the table with the CNC's last counter proposals in their hands and the mediator recessed negotiations till the gap can be closed. It is obvious that it is the companies turn to close the gap.

2. The strike ballot is coming out in the coming weeks because of the threat made by the company negotiators. The CNC was taken aback at this threat because of the progress that had been made and they were looking forward to finishing.

3. The Wilson numbers are stronger than ever on support for the MEC, CNC and strike.

4. Uncle Jerry is unhappy with ASA managment for not getting the contract done.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I have stated some of it already, but I'll repost what I remember cause I don't have my notes.

1. The company was the one who walked away from the table after they threatened that it would come to a strike because they will not come up any more on the pay rates. The whole time the CNC had been coming down off our proposal. They left the table with the CNC's last counter proposals in their hands and the mediator recessed negotiations till the gap can be closed. It is obvious that it is the companies turn to close the gap.

2. The strike ballot is coming out in the coming weeks because of the threat made by the company negotiators. The CNC was taken aback at this threat because of the progress that had been made and they were looking forward to finishing.

3. The Wilson numbers are stronger than ever on support for the MEC, CNC and strike.

4. Uncle Jerry is unhappy with ASA managment for not getting the contract done.

1. That may or may not be exactly true. I'm not calling you liar, I know you are putting out what ALPA is saying. I would like to get the story from the other side also and decide which one is closer to the truth. My advice to those of you on the sidelines is to listen to ALPA's positions and then listen to managements take on events. Then make up your own minds. Sometimes both sides have the same take, and sometimes they don't agree with each other. If they aren't the same story, one side is either lying, or both sides are fibbing with the truth being somewhere in the middle. For the record, I've seen lies come from BOTH sides at various times.

2. While I will be voting NO, I agree that it is time to get this over with. I also agree that it will pass, but it won't be the 98/98 we had in 1997.

3. I'm sure that is true, but ALPA has convinced many people that this is entirely managements fault. That is a stretch of the truth to say the least. Again, I don't believe it is strong as it was in 1997. I voted Yes in '97 and will be voting No this time.

4. If what you say here is true, then the contract will get settled if ALPA is reasonable in it's demands.

 

[Beergut]

I'm amazed that you really believe the rjdc is responsible, except for further dividing the pilot groups! I guess you believe the rjdc invented the wheel too??


How goes the spending spree??
We all know that the rjdc's membership is filled with the "undesirables" of aviation....No college degree, DUI's, violations. That's why you sought the monetary claims. You wanted something you didn't deserve, and thought the lawsuit was your claim to money!
The rjdc has made you and the likes of Dan Ford famous in this industry. Who else can you say has a name in this industry so negative besides the likes of Carl Ichan or Frank Lorenzo. The only difference was they were management scum, you guys are just scum!
737

So not having a college degree makes you "undesirable"? Some of the best pilot's I know don't have a college degree and some of the worst I know do.