Industry 70 seat rates

[79%N1]

I decided to do some research on 70 seat rates in the industry, to compare them to ASA's current rates, and what mngmt has proposed. Pretty interesting:

Captain Rates:

---Eagle--Comair--Mesa- PSA- CHQ- SKYW--Ave: ASA

5yr- 70--- 64 --- 62--- 66--- 68----63--- 65.5----68
6yr- 72--- 66--- 64--- 68--- 70 ---65--- 67.5----70
7yr- 74--- 68--- 66--- 69--- 72----67--- 69.3----72
8yr- 76--- 70 --- 68--- 71---74 ---69--- 71.3-----75
9yr- 78--- 72--- 70--- 73--- 76--- 71--- 73.3----78
10yr- 80---74--- 72 --- 75--- 79--- 74---77.7-----81
Max- 97--- 94--- 90 --- 91--- 95--- 93---93.5----103
18 yrs

First Officers:

---Eagle--Comair--Mesa--Psa---CHQ---SKYW---Ave----ASA--ASA cut

1yr--24---20-------21-----21----22----19----21.6-----19---?
2yr--32---32-------28-----30----30----35----30.4-----37---32.2
3yr--34---34-------31-----32----34----36----33-------39---34.3
4yr--36---35-------33-----34----35----37----34.6-----40---34.8
5yr--37---36-------34-----35----35----38----35.4-----41---35.7
max-39---38-------36-----36----35-----40---35.7-----45

If you look at the FO rates, ASA is indeed considerably higher than the rest, aside from 1st year. Now, my feeling on this is maybe everyone else is paid too little, however, they are what they are. ASA's second year FO pay is almost more than the industry ave. for the max pay! Trying to be rational, and looking from the other side, I can see where management is coming up with their proposed rates. They still put ASA above industry average. With the unions propsed 9% raises above these rates, we would be so far above industry rates our flying would no longer be viable, and we would probably lose all of our 700's to Skywest. This is how business works. They seek to keep their costs in line with their competitors. No flame, now. I am not a Deangelo. Just wanted to lay it out and look at it in the big picture to decide if I support 9% increase (which I would LOVE!) over our already higher rates, and deciding the cosequences of that. Can I strike to try to get 23% more pay than the averages of my competitors? I just don't think they will pay us that, and if they did agree to, how could we expect any new flying, or to keep what we have when Skywest could just take it, or Delta could give it to Mesa and CHQ whose costs are much lower!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thank you for an informative post.

My no vote is sealed by Section 1. With no scope protections, no merger and no fragmentation protections, and no committment from SkyWest to uphold the ASA contract - it literally does not matter what we get paid. The airline does not have to use us.

 

[737 Pylt]

Thank you for an informative post.

My no vote is sealed by Section 1. With no scope protections, no merger and no fragmentation protections, and no committment from SkyWest to uphold the ASA contract - it literally does not matter what we get paid. The airline does not have to use us.

And yet you and your pals so want to do away with "scope protections."
Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot, its ok.
737

 

[SilverandSore]

There are many pieces to the compensation section, do the figures include profit sharing? 401k contribution? I know SkyWest guys with the same seniority as me that make more per paycheck than I do. What possible scenario would make me vote for payrates and paychecks that will become even less than SkyWest? None.

 

[Dodge]

Don't forget about Mesaba's pitiful rates for the Avro. Seats 69, 16F-53Y. Designed for 85 single class. Of course these numbers will be going even lower once the BK shakes loose. Oh yeah, the aircraft is leaving and everyone will be in the Saab, or furloughed if hired after 1997-98.

CA
5yr N.A
10yr $77
15yr $90
18yr $94


FO
1yr N.A
5yr N.A.
10yr $38

 

[~~~^~~~]

And yet you and your pals so want to do away with "scope protections."
Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot, its ok.
737

That just goes to show how little you understand about the RJDC. Our goal all along has been to strengthen scope. Scope is stronger when it includes the pilots doing the flying.

Perfect scope would be "all Delta flying is done by Delta pilots."

I know your post was intended to attempt a joke using irony. However we take our scope seriously and do not find irony in our position. So now you get a history lesson.

• The ASA and Comair pilots, through their MEC petitioned ALPA for a merger under the union's own Constitution and Bylaws. The Delta MEC fought the merger request with disinformation, including the lies about DOH and denial of cross bidding which gave Delta pilots rights on the Comair / ASA seniority lists. (Second Officer SLOA). Ultimately ALPA granted the Delta pilots their demand to avoid the threat Giambusso made to take Delta out of ALPA.
• Once ALPA's Consitution was ignored, we sought the remedy of trying to preserve our scope by contracting with our parent company which had operational control of our flying. Again, ALPA at the direction of the Delta MEC stopped this from taking place.
• The Delta MEC then began negotiating our scope, with us locked out of the room. The decisions made by Giambusso and Malone directly impacted the wages and working conditions of member pilots at ASA and Comair. In our opinion ALPA negotiated contracts without adhering to its duty to represent the interests of ASA and Comair pilots equally with the Delta pilots. One result was watching scope decrease from 105 seat aircraft to 50 seat aircraft. In fact, the first two scope lawsuits were filed by ALPA against Delta with the intent of parking airplanes flown by ASA and Comair pilots. The Delta pilots lost both of these lawsuits, but the Company asquiesed to ALPA's demands to keep labor peace.
• Then, with no limitation on outsourcing - the starter's pistol was fired on the "race to the bottom" was fired on the Delta property. We now have Republic, Mid Atlantic, Chautauqua, Mesa, Eagle, Freedom, Shuttle America and a very much larger Skywest bidding on flying. ACA was a player and others have bid. Again, this was the direct result of scope being negotiated with the pilots who performed the flying having been locked out of the room. The Delta MEC was not only responsible, they intended this to happen. The theory is that if your regional feed is cheaper, then mainline guys can negotiate higher pay! ALPA knows the value of scope and traded ours away for a "bargaining credit" awarded to the Delta pilots.
• We have watched similar patterns through out our profession as ALPA has stopped small jet pilots from having scope and the entire profession has been diminished to the point where your MEC now underbids my pilot group and we have to take concessions to "stay competitive."

We do not wish to compete with you, or any other pilots for flying. The proper role of a union is to remove labor as a competitive advantage and a union's goal should be to raise the professional standard of compensation. The cornerstone of unionism is scope.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

Don't forget about Mesaba's pitiful rates for the Avro. Seats 69, 16F-53Y. Designed for 85 single class. Of course these numbers will be going even lower once the BK shakes loose. Oh yeah, the aircraft is leaving and everyone will be in the Saab, or furloughed if hired after 1997-98.

I'm really amazed you guys don't try to stop this by taking ALPA on. I'm pretty much convinced the Delta pilots would have tried to pull a "Compass" on us if we did not form the RJDC.

I have a lot of faith in the RJDC being able to stop mainline MEC's and management from colluding to destroy our jobs. If the RJDC loses and ALPA continues on its current course, this profession is going to continue down hill, even if the industry rebounds.

 

[EMB to CRJ]

good post 79%N1. We need to realizes that just because we want to make 80K a year as a fo and 120K as a cpt the real world will not allow it. The 10% raise would increase the payroll by about 800,000 a month(cpt avg rate 65, fo 38 for an average of 51.5 and hour. 5.15 and hour raise x 82 a month * 1800). Based on the the last dot data from the 4th qtr 2005 asa is making 15 mill a month so sure they could afford it now but fuel is going up and not as manny people leaving so that profit could be gone real fast. With the others airlines being where they are what business owner would pay an extra 10% for the exact same service. So we need to decide if we want to be the highest paid in the industry but loose 15 or more airplanes and put some people out of a job, take some 60+ and hour captains and put them back to 40 and hour fos, move people from 3days to 4 days as so on. Less that 25% of ASA is on the 700 so it is really in the best interest to go on strike to protect that rate when most people fly the 200 and plan to get there time and move on never to get near that 18 year rate. Remember that you get almost a 60% raise when you move to the left seat so growh is what half of our pilots need not a 10% raise in the rate for a FO. I say grandfather the existing 70 pilots and go for a skywest blended rate to keep us growing(or at least not shrinking remember 12 atr will go away next year those 70 seat replacements could easily go to SKY if we cost more).

 

[737 Pylt]

I'm really amazed you guys don't try to stop this by taking ALPA on. I'm pretty much convinced the Delta pilots would have tried to pull a "Compass" on us if we did not form the RJDC.

I'm amazed that you really believe the rjdc is responsible, except for further dividing the pilot groups! I guess you believe the rjdc invented the wheel too??

I have a lot of faith in the RJDC being able to stop mainline MEC's and management from colluding to destroy our jobs. If the RJDC loses and ALPA continues on its current course, this profession is going to continue down hill, even if the industry rebounds.

How goes the spending spree??
We all know that the rjdc's membership is filled with the "undesirables" of aviation....No college degree, DUI's, violations. That's why you sought the monetary claims. You wanted something you didn't deserve, and thought the lawsuit was your claim to money!
The rjdc has made you and the likes of Dan Ford famous in this industry. Who else can you say has a name in this industry so negative besides the likes of Carl Ichan or Frank Lorenzo. The only difference was they were management scum, you guys are just scum!
737

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Has anybody figured out what the net cost to the company would be when comparing the proposed 70-seat cut and the 50-seat and ATR raise? Does the 70-seat decrease equal the amount in raises for the other pilots?

Just curious.