Industry 70 seat rates

[jehtplane]

Well, other than Horizon, those are all of the Regional carriers that fly 70 seaters. Who else can I compare? I don't think anyone should have to take paycuts....but I disagree that the aircraft are already decided on where they go. Look at Skywest already taking 13 700's from ASA! How can we think they won't take more? The point of the chart was for me to find out how my pay compares with others, to see if my CNC was in line in what we are asking for.....and guess what? It isnt! We are already $6-7/hr more than everyone else. How do we think we can get another 9%, and then keep the flying? Can SKYW not open a base in ATL to fly more 70's? How about them opening a base in ATL to get the new (proposed) 90's? Of course they can. Rumor is, Mesa will be getting the 900 flying anyway, not ASA. I didnt invent the pay to play, and I don't like it. I just think we need to be careful in what we are asking for, and I don't think too many people understand where we are in relation to the competition. I really foresee small decreases for 70 Captains at ASA, and FO's going to one rate for all aircraft. (Fo's always get sold out anyway, right) Throw in some profit sharing and some sort of rig or min day, more liberal swapping rules and our w2's will come out ahead. We can, and should meet management at some compromise where we can all come out ahead.

When did those companies agree to those payrates? Comair is in BK, Sky******************** is well Sky********************, and CHQ and Mesa, do you really want to drive yourselves to the pit of Mesa,what about Eagle, they signed that contract years ago, How long has the ASA pilot group been in negotiations? What is so unique about Horizon? You guys need to stop the race to the bottom. You can believe the planes are already decided where they are going, reference the Comair and ASA RFP years ago, when ASA said go pound dirt and ASA got the AIRPLANES ANYWAY, Jerry has a plan.

 

[1x1]

Horizon at this time is a unique situation that may or may not continue. .

I'll venture to say "may not" . They have an ammendable contract this year, and they are hiring a wealth of low time, eager to get a job, CFI types. If you consider Horizon's high payscale, and read between the lines, I think the situation at Horizon will soon fall in line with the rest of the "bottom feeder" fiascos. Before you know it, the Horizons boyz and girlz will be on this board with there effusive tirades about management, and how Brand X regional dold them out for growth. JMHO

 

[JoeMerchant]

When did those companies agree to those payrates? Comair is in BK, Sky******************** is well Sky********************, and CHQ and Mesa, do you really want to drive yourselves to the pit of Mesa,what about Eagle, .

So are you saying that we don't have to compete with CMR, SKYW, CHQ, MESA, and EGL? Are you in denial?...... You can rationalize why these carriers agreed to what they did until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it won't alter the fact that we are still competing with them. Maybe you should be asking your $500,000 per year ALPA president WHY we are competing with each other while he makes more than 5 ASA 700 captains? What is ALPA doing to prevent this? What are your 2% dues doing to stop this?

 

[hmmurdock]

I decided to do some research on 70 seat rates in the industry, to compare them to ASA's current rates, and what mngmt has proposed. Pretty interesting:

Captain Rates:

---Eagle--Comair--Mesa- PSA- CHQ- SKYW--Ave: ASA

5yr- 70--- 64 --- 62--- 66--- 68----63--- 65.5----68
6yr- 72--- 66--- 64--- 68--- 70 ---65--- 67.5----70
7yr- 74--- 68--- 66--- 69--- 72----67--- 69.3----72
8yr- 76--- 70 --- 68--- 71---74 ---69--- 71.3-----75
9yr- 78--- 72--- 70--- 73--- 76--- 71--- 73.3----78
10yr- 80---74--- 72 --- 75--- 79--- 74---77.7-----81
Max- 97--- 94--- 90 --- 91--- 95--- 93---93.5----103
18 yrs

First Officers:

---Eagle--Comair--Mesa--Psa---CHQ---SKYW---Ave----ASA--ASA cut

1yr--24---20-------21-----21----22----19----21.6-----19---?
2yr--32---32-------28-----30----30----35----30.4-----37---32.2
3yr--34---34-------31-----32----34----36----33-------39---34.3
4yr--36---35-------33-----34----35----37----34.6-----40---34.8
5yr--37---36-------34-----35----35----38----35.4-----41---35.7
max-39---38-------36-----36----35-----40---35.7-----45

If you look at the FO rates, ASA is indeed considerably higher than the rest, aside from 1st year. Now, my feeling on this is maybe everyone else is paid too little, however, they are what they are. ASA's second year FO pay is almost more than the industry ave. for the max pay! Trying to be rational, and looking from the other side, I can see where management is coming up with their proposed rates. They still put ASA above industry average. With the unions propsed 9% raises above these rates, we would be so far above industry rates our flying would no longer be viable, and we would probably lose all of our 700's to Skywest. This is how business works. They seek to keep their costs in line with their competitors. No flame, now. I am not a Deangelo. Just wanted to lay it out and look at it in the big picture to decide if I support 9% increase (which I would LOVE!) over our already higher rates, and deciding the cosequences of that. Can I strike to try to get 23% more pay than the averages of my competitors? I just don't think they will pay us that, and if they did agree to, how could we expect any new flying, or to keep what we have when Skywest could just take it, or Delta could give it to Mesa and CHQ whose costs are much lower!

Interesting comparison, however you forgot to add in Horizon's 70 seat payrate. If you are going to look at the 70 seat averages then include ALL of the 70 seat payrates. I find it amusing that people dont include Horizon's payrates. Is it because you think they make too much?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'll venture to say "may not" . They have an ammendable contract this year, and they are hiring a wealth of low time, eager to get a job, CFI types. If you consider Horizon's high payscale, and read between the lines, I think the situation at Horizon will soon fall in line with the rest of the "bottom feeder" fiascos. Before you know it, the Horizons boyz and girlz will be on this board with there effusive tirades about management, and how Brand X regional dold them out for growth. JMHO

I believe you are correct 1x1. My guess is that Horizon will fall in line with the rest. They will blame another pilot group, but in the end they will just become part of the problem. We are doing it to ourselves, blaming each other, and continue to pay our "union leaders" large amounts of money to do nothing....

 

[mavdog]

I believe you are correct 1x1. My guess is that Horizon will fall in line with the rest. They will blame another pilot group, but in the end they will just become part of the problem. We are doing it to ourselves, blaming each other, and continue to pay our "union leaders" large amounts of money to do nothing....

I'm interested... if you were management how are you going to come to a pilot group that is making money for the company? It's real money too, not that inflated fee-for-departure crap. Who is Horizon going to blame?? That 'other' regional taking our flying? I don't think so.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm interested... if you were management how are you going to come to a pilot group that is making money for the company? It's real money too, not that inflated fee-for-departure crap. Who is Horizon going to blame?? That 'other' regional taking our flying? I don't think so.

It isn't "fee for departure crap". We are making money, but only because Delta is paying us. If they don't pay us to fly for them, then we don't make money. Ask ACA, Air Wisc. and Mesaba about this "crap".

 

[737 Pylt]

Looking forward to seeing you this weekend. Don't let 737Peenut get your goat, he is getting worried that ALPA isn't protecting his job and is rightly concerned.... maybe he should seek outside legal council also because obviously ALPA isn't protecting his career.

Fins up and see this weekend....

Sorry JB, I'm not the one filing a lawsuit! Maybe you should get your head out of Dan's butt! He's leading you down a path that the likes of the Easter scabs!
737

 

[mavdog]

It isn't "fee for departure crap". We are making money, but only because Delta is paying us. If they don't pay us to fly for them, then we don't make money. Ask ACA, Air Wisc. and Mesaba about this "crap".

So I guess I can ask myself...

 

[JoeMerchant]

So I guess I can ask myself...

Yes you can. At Mesaba, you make money if NWA pays your expenses plus. If they don't, you don't make money.