India is DESPERATE!!!

[Lear70]

i never said people don't try hard enough and i certainly don't consider myself lucky. i sepnt 3 years as a cfi makeing nothing, i flew jumpers for 5 bucks a load and the first regional i worked for paid 14,000 a year. so don't tell me im arogant. it took 13 uears to get to where i am at and it is only because i knew what i wanted. i knew i needed pic jet when i was at pdt and all the rgionals were getting rj's, i was just smart enough not by a car, house, boat etc and shack up with a FA while at a regional. I am no diff. then anybody here. evrybody complains about low pay crappy working conditions etc. at the regionals, the regionals are there for one thing and one thing only to give you experiance to move on. when i was at pdt we tried to fight, i picked up no ot, did nothing extra and it still didn't help so i realized what role the regional airline plays and just delat with it. Its not that hard trust me. everyone i started with got a job ata major, legacy, whatever you wan't to call it. If you wan't it baddly it will happen. if you complain about it you will get noware nothing.

Thanks for making my point.

Your intentions may be as noble as you say, but your delivery comes across EXCESSIVELY conceited for the THOUSANDS of pilots who have been busting their a*s for DECADES and still haven't gotten where you are.

I could care less about being in your shoes; I've been here a year and love it. Providing our contract comes up with the requisite $$$, I have no intentions of going anywhere else.

But if you really think it's your skill and determination that have gotten you this far with absolutely NO luck or help from contacts/references, then you really are hopelessly out of touch with reality.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Dude,
He was probably comparing the industry to pre-9/11. We, FDX/SWA/UPS are on the top of the world now because of default only. You probably don't remember, but few wanted to work at the above three before 9/11.

I sought the financial stability and greater growth projections that the cargo side offered in the early 90's. Many pilot applicants to UAL (as an example) utterly FAILED to do any financial research whatsoever and falsely assumed because UAL was hiring, they must be healthy. The ESOP was a result of Wall St. DECLINING to invest money into their operation. Turning to their employees for what was essentially a bailout was their last resort before massive layoffs and major downsizing. A cursory financial review of UAL in the early 90's revealed a financial nightmare. Many correctly attributed their mid 90's turnaround to a favorable business climate in which "dot-commers" were happily willing to pay outrageous $ multi-thousand walk-up fares to close deals on short notice versus UAL's incredibly insightful (ESOP) management plan. Their "Achilles Heel" was their dependance on these high-priced business fares for their financial survival.

I CHOSE UPS over UAL due to their business model and financial strength. Comparing contracts alone is, IMO, NOT doing your homework if a long, financially stable career is your objective.

YMMV,

BBB

 

[Falconjet]

They learn how to use TP over there and maybe more folks would be willing to relocate to work there.

I wouldn't shake any body's hand in that country!

FJ

 

[bravodude]

Thanks for making my point.

Your intentions may be as noble as you say, but your delivery comes across EXCESSIVELY conceited for the THOUSANDS of pilots who have been busting their a*s for DECADES and still haven't gotten where you are.

I could care less about being in your shoes; I've been here a year and love it. Providing our contract comes up with the requisite $$$, I have no intentions of going anywhere else.

But if you really think it's your skill and determination that have gotten you this far with absolutely NO luck or help from contacts/references, then you really are hopelessly out of touch with reality.

I hope your contract does come up but the guy whi is going to be in class with me that has been at airtran for 3 years and just got the upgrade but still paid for his type to jump ship doesnt seem to agree with you.( that was an intentioned smart as$ comment). Luck, what does luck have to do with it. internal rec`s didn't get me an interview at SW nor did it help me make 8,000 dollars a year while i was a cfi. Did luck help me get here nooooo. if it was luck i would have been that guy that got hired at the first regional he applied too and i would have have been that guy that got hired at the first major they interviewd at. ( i was shot down at Airtran and jetblue- pre 9/11 had i been hired at either one i would be sitting pretty now) so no i don't consider myslef lucky. If you want to blame your succes on luck be my guest! Have a nice life.

 

[Lear70]

I hope your contract does come up but the guy whi is going to be in class with me that has been at airtran for 3 years and just got the upgrade but still paid for his type to jump ship doesnt seem to agree with you.( that was an intentioned smart as$ comment). Luck, what does luck have to do with it. internal rec`s didn't get me an interview at SW nor did it help me make 8,000 dollars a year while i was a cfi. Did luck help me get here nooooo. if it was luck i would have been that guy that got hired at the first regional he applied too and i would have have been that guy that got hired at the first major they interviewd at. ( i was shot down at Airtran and jetblue- pre 9/11 had i been hired at either one i would be sitting pretty now) so no i don't consider myslef lucky. If you want to blame your succes on luck be my guest! Have a nice life.

Again, thanks for making my point.

Hope your self-delusion takes you through the rest of your career unscathed. Because luck has nothing to do with it, right?

 

[bravodude]

Again, thanks for making my point.

Hope your self-delusion takes you through the rest of your career unscathed. Because luck has nothing to do with it, right?

you are verry welcome. i wonder why you still work because if you are so lucky you should win the lottery. I guess everyone is lucky acording to you including evry ceo that made it to the top, every doctor is ;ucky for finishing medical school. You know what live your life thinking you are lucky and never beeing proud of your own grit and determination. Have a nice life!

 

[pilotyip]

Skill and desire

Luck and timing have more to do with your career than skill and desire. Remember the Fedex Captain who got hired two years out of ERAU with 2500 hours, no TJ PIC, was that luck or skill?

 

[Dizel8]

Your information is bad. We have lost 15 possibly as many as 70 777 captains who were hired by Jet Airways as 777-300 captains. Pay is 240K can be based anywhere in Europe with positive space passes to and from with good time off etc.

Possible US bases soon.

Not that I doubt you, but according to their website, they have no 777's!

Although I stand corrected:

SEATTLE, Oct. 04, 2005 -- The Boeing Company today confirmed the completion of an order agreement with Mumbai-based Jet Airways for 10 777-300ERs. Jet Airways announced its intention to order the commercial airplanes, valued at $2.53 billion at list prices, at the Paris Air Show in June. Deliveries will begin in early 2007

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Not that I doubt you, but according to their website, they have no 777's!

Although I stand corrected:

SEATTLE, Oct. 04, 2005 -- The Boeing Company today confirmed the completion of an order agreement with Mumbai-based Jet Airways for 10 777-300ERs. Jet Airways announced its intention to order the commercial airplanes, valued at $2.53 billion at list prices, at the Paris Air Show in June. Deliveries will begin in early 2007

A few former AA and DAL also on contract now in Japan, there are a few contracts out there that are pretty good and getting better as the international market is booming, but do your homework about the contract agency you choose, there are some new ones that are out there that are not too good (The company might be a good one but choose a contract agency that will give you the logistical support you need)
Good pay and benefits, but like Lear70 said. It will be very hard to get off the Gold Handcuffs and return to a job States Side.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity, and I must be prepared to MAKE MY OWN LUCK - Raymond Barry

Believe it or not, you do have control over the direction of your career and life my friend. If you stand there waiting for things to happen, nothing will happen.

AZT

I agree.

 

[capt. megadeth]

For one example of a guy 'getting ahead' by skipping the four year, I'll give you 20 who are at best languishing at some regional cause they don't have one. Besides not having the four year in place for a back-up in this industry, especially in light of this last downturn, is just plain idiotic...

I agree with this too!

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

).

Most years I averaged about $50,000. NOT an impressive salary in ANY professional industry.

Maybe that's becuase we are considered skilled labor, NOT profesionals.

 

[Lear70]

Considered by whom? The DOT?

I consider myself a consummate professional, and I don't need an agency to voice their opinion regarding it one way or the other to know what I am.

Incidentally, I agree that the PERCEPTION of management, politicians, and the NMB is inline with your statement. Just simply don't agree with that assessment.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I go the info off of the AvWeb weekly, I believe (it was one of the aviation weekly's I get, for sure).

My great-grandmother, grandmother, aunt, aunt and sister travelled to India excessively. 1 of the aunts lived in Nepal and Thailand also. They loved India.

I read a post of a guy on flightinfo who got a job there and loves it.

I do realize it's not for everyone. If you have to wake up everymorning to Fox News, I can see whow India/anywhere foreign would be terrible.

We will go if I can find the right situation.

cliff
YIP

PS-I started on pprune.org about 4 years ago. There's no reason why flightinfo can't have a thread here. Most of the guys here don't know about the Asia explosion and have never heard of pprune.

 

[414Flyer]

I have worked and flown in India before, when I was there it seemed trying at times, and it is, but after doing some flying in west Africa, India seemed like a little bit of heaven in comparison.

If you get a break on a regular basis, that will make it a lot easier. After 5 months I was about to go crazy, but after I was back for 2 weeks and then asked to go back again for a short bit, it was fine.

Some of the jobs I have seen posted maybe have 6 week on, 2 off , and that is more liveable.

 

[bravodude]

Considered by whom? The DOT?

I consider myself a consummate professional, and I don't need an agency to voice their opinion regarding it one way or the other to know what I am.

Incidentally, I agree that the PERCEPTION of management, politicians, and the NMB is inline with your statement. Just simply don't agree with that assessment.

consummate professional huh! I guess you are LUCKY because skill has nothing to do with it right

 

[Mach8Forest]

consummate professional huh! I guess you are LUCKY because skill has nothing to do with it right

Give it a break Bravodude. Go study so you can pass your GED!
Mach8

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Considered by whom? The DOT?

I consider myself a consummate professional, and I don't need an agency to voice their opinion regarding it one way or the other to know what I am.

Incidentally, I agree that the PERCEPTION of management, politicians, and the NMB is inline with your statement. Just simply don't agree with that assessment.

I'm glad that you consider yourself that. I hope that you act in a professional manner while on the job...I try to. But, it doesn't matter. "Airline Pilot" is not classified as a professional. It is skilled labor, period. What other "profession" dcan you think of that is represented by a blue collar type union. Consider yourslef a professional if you want, your job classification does bot make you one, though. I do the same thing as you, by the way, and I am a professional-acting skilled laborer.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Lear70 is right. The aviation job market today is 100000% about who you know. Period. You can have the most fantastic qualifications in the world and you will still lose your slot at CAL to the 2000 hour BE-1900 F/O that knows the chief pilot's nephew. Same thing with corporate jobs unless you have a type rating and are sim current in their type. Without contacts, forget it.....your quals don't matter, because there are too many guys out there that DO know somebody.

It sucks that things have gotten to be that way, but that's the way the market is at this point in time. There are thousands of high-time pilots out there looking for jobs, and the only ones that stand out are people that get internal recommendations. Kudos to SWA for doing what they can to try to eliminate the 'buddy' system, but in the end, at the decision board, internal recs make or break you from what I understand.

But most of the good jobs out there, if you don't know somebody, forget it. CAL, FDX, UPS, DAL....IMPOSSIBLE without a sponsor from within the company. NJA, CS, near impossible unless you get amazingly lucky.

 

[Lear70]

I'm glad that you consider yourself that. I hope that you act in a professional manner while on the job...I try to. But, it doesn't matter. "Airline Pilot" is not classified as a professional. It is skilled labor, period. What other "profession" dcan you think of that is represented by a blue collar type union. Consider yourslef a professional if you want, your job classification does bot make you one, though. I do the same thing as you, by the way, and I am a professional-acting skilled laborer.

I understand your resignation to DOT classification, I really do, and I believe it's part of the multiple reasons why we will NEVER be as well-compensated as this industry was in the past.

Have you ever heard the phrase, "You get what you negotiate"?

If people see themselves as blue collar skilled workers, similar to Electricians, Computer programmers, etc, then YOU'RE GOING TO GET PAID LIKE ONE.

However, if you see yourself as a PROFESSIONAL, you're going to demand compensation equivalent to that title and responsibility.

This is one of the core issues we, as pilots, have. We keep LETTING the government and our employers whittle down our expectations, because we're nothing but replaceable skilled labor, right?

Before long, if people keep buying into this mentality, we'll be lucky just to keep up with inflation in our salaries, much less get BACK to where they were in the 60's, 70's, and 80's in equivalent dollars.

So, I don't give a fu*k WHAT the DOT says I am. I know what I am. I know what I'm worth. And I demand that my compensation reflect it. Period.

If everyone else thought and worked this way, we'd be a long way towards making this career desirable again.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I understand your resignation to DOT classification, I really do, and I believe it's part of the multiple reasons why we will NEVER be as well-compensated as this industry was in the past.

Have you ever heard the phrase, "You get what you negotiate"?

If people see themselves as blue collar skilled workers, similar to Electricians, Computer programmers, etc, then YOU'RE GOING TO GET PAID LIKE ONE.

However, if you see yourself as a PROFESSIONAL, you're going to demand compensation equivalent to that title and responsibility.

This is one of the core issues we, as pilots, have. We keep LETTING the government and our employers whittle down our expectations, because we're nothing but replaceable skilled labor, right?

Before long, if people keep buying into this mentality, we'll be lucky just to keep up with inflation in our salaries, much less get BACK to where they were in the 60's, 70's, and 80's in equivalent dollars.

So, I don't give a fu*k WHAT the DOT says I am. I know what I am. I know what I'm worth. And I demand that my compensation reflect it. Period.

If everyone else thought and worked this way, we'd be a long way towards making this career desirable again.

I think you need a reality check. First, make sure your buddies keep voting Republican if you want the erosion of pay and workers/unions rights to continue. Second, the public perception of our career is that of spoiled babies. I work at the same company as you. I make more than the average family of four in this country. So do you. And we both work less than they do. I hear rumors of informational picketing. What a joke. The public doesn't care. And frankly, I find many of your comments to be the spoiled baby type.

Further, I'm not suggesting that we don't negotiate for better pay and rules. I am suggesting that people be realistic, and many NPA people are not. And ,please, if it is so undesireable to be here, why did you come here? Quit. Go find yourself a profession where you will be properly "respected".

 

[Lear70]

I think you need a reality check. First, make sure your buddies keep voting Republican if you want the erosion of pay and workers/unions rights to continue. Second, the public perception of our career is that of spoiled babies. I work at the same company as you. I make more than the average family of four in this country. So do you. And we both work less than they do. I hear rumors of informational picketing. What a joke. The public doesn't care. And frankly, I find many of your comments to be the spoiled baby type.

Further, I'm not suggesting that we don't negotiate for better pay and rules. I am suggesting that people be realistic, and many NPA people are not. And ,please, if it is so undesireable to be here, why did you come here? Quit. Go find yourself a profession where you will be properly "respected".

And I find your comments to be insulting, both to the profession and personally.

Where is your pride?

I made $40k this last year. That is NOT enough for a family of four in a middle-income bracket, and barely pays a $175,000 mortgage, a car note, and all the other incidentals of life.

You think that is acceptable?

Secondly, if we are so unrealistic, why is THE ENTIRE REST OF THE INDUSTRY HIGHER THAN OUR PAY ??!!

Maybe all of THEM are wrong and you are RIGHT...?

There's only 2 carriers with lower F/O pay than ours. Everyone else is higher. My goal for pay here is right in the middle to upper 2/3 of the industry. Not the top, not the highest. If that's too lofty of a goal for you, maybe you should reevaluate your standards. Or are you the guy at the bar who goes ugly early?

Third, you are very typical of the person who can't debate without throwing the "if you don't like it, why did you come here / why don't you leave" card.

I came here because of the Quality of Life increase from a regional and the POTENTIAL of this company to be the next Southwest. I'm willing to work hard towards that goal, including doing my PROFESSIONAL job 100%. That's not the cry of a "spoiled baby", that's how this industry advances.

You have absolutely ZERO business telling me I shouldn't have come here or that I should leave. I'm not trying to run the company into the ground, I'm busting my butt doing my job and asking for a compensation package that's in the middle to top 2/3 of the industry.

Lastly, it's funny that you mention that so many other people have expectations you think are "unrealistic". Again, if you and a FEW others think you are worth less and the MAJORITY of the pilot group thinks we are worth more, including many of those in leadership of the NPA, maybe it's not THEM who's out of step,,,?

Just a thought.

 

[LaGarbage Man]

You know I came to this thread hoping to maybe learn something about the contract pilot side of things and instead end up wasting my time with the usual Flight Info. Bull Sh**. My bad I should have know better.
Commencing Beating Head Against Desk Chanting " IDIOT, IDIOT, IDIOT "
or should that be " Professional Idiot, Professional Idiot, Professional Idiot"
So many questions??

 

[Lear70]

or should that be " Professional Idiot, Professional Idiot, Professional Idiot"
So many questions??

Hey, at least you have something to shoot for now...

 

[capt. megadeth]

But most of the good jobs out there, if you don't know somebody, forget it. CAL, FDX, UPS, DAL....IMPOSSIBLE without a sponsor from within the company. NJA, CS, near impossible unless you get amazingly lucky.

Well, UPS has changed that recently. There have been people hired without recommendations. I don't know how long that will last though.

 

[AC560]

The bottom line is on paper most hiring managers are going to respect the individual with a 4 year degree. Without one you gonna have to make up quite a lot in life experience and charisma if you get called in for an interview.

As a management puke I have to agree with PilotYip on this. Degrees are over rated and it is the last thing I look for in hiring. Given a choice between a 22yr old with any kind of work experience or a 22yr old coming out of school, 9 times out of 10 I will go for the experience. For an adult in the work force it is completely irrelevant. First you aren't hiring a 40yr old into an entry level position. Second what they learned in school 20yrs ago probably was forgotten or no longer applies. Third I am again looking at their experience in whatever their background is and seeing if that knowledge and work ethic can help my company.

One of my biggest personal regrets that I intent to correct when I retire is getting my degree, but it had no effect on my career and if anything put me 4yrs ahead of everyone else in my field.

My advice to anyone in aviation would be get flying for $$$ at 18 and do the night school thing if you think the degree will help you.

 

[Huck]

If you have to wake up everymorning to Fox News, I can see how India/anywhere foreign would be terrible.

Funny you should say that - we've got guys who organize letter-writing campaigns to get Fox in each of our overseas hotels.....

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

And I find your comments to be insulting, both to the profession and personally.

Where is your pride?

I made $40k this last year. That is NOT enough for a family of four in a middle-income bracket, and barely pays a $175,000 mortgage, a car note, and all the other incidentals of life.

You think that is acceptable?

Secondly, if we are so unrealistic, why is THE ENTIRE REST OF THE INDUSTRY HIGHER THAN OUR PAY ??!!

Maybe all of THEM are wrong and you are RIGHT...?

There's only 2 carriers with lower F/O pay than ours. Everyone else is higher. My goal for pay here is right in the middle to upper 2/3 of the industry. Not the top, not the highest. If that's too lofty of a goal for you, maybe you should reevaluate your standards. Or are you the guy at the bar who goes ugly early?

Third, you are very typical of the person who can't debate without throwing the "if you don't like it, why did you come here / why don't you leave" card.

I came here because of the Quality of Life increase from a regional and the POTENTIAL of this company to be the next Southwest. I'm willing to work hard towards that goal, including doing my PROFESSIONAL job 100%. That's not the cry of a "spoiled baby", that's how this industry advances.

You have absolutely ZERO business telling me I shouldn't have come here or that I should leave. I'm not trying to run the company into the ground, I'm busting my butt doing my job and asking for a compensation package that's in the middle to top 2/3 of the industry.

Lastly, it's funny that you mention that so many other people have expectations you think are "unrealistic". Again, if you and a FEW others think you are worth less and the MAJORITY of the pilot group thinks we are worth more, including many of those in leadership of the NPA, maybe it's not THEM who's out of step,,,?

Just a thought.

First, I made 70k last year, on FO pay. Again, more than the avg family of four. I'm not getting rich, and don't expect to in this industry. I'm realistic. Let me next apologize if you took my comments to close to home. I was not trying to insult you personally. I do, however, think that most of the pilots in this industry, at majors, have lost touch with reality. Things like informational picketing do nothing but make us look like asses. The public does not CARE. They care about buying another Tahoe, and a new Louis Vuitton bag. They already think we make too much money, and their $89 flight costs to much. We will no garner sympathy, we will garner only resentment.

I'm not suggesting that we should not be fairly compensated, or even that we should not make more money than we do now. I am suggesting a realistic approach to all of this, without the chest thumping, and "I'm a professional!" Acting in a professional manner should go without saying. It does NOT CHANGE YOUR JOB CLASSIFICATION!

I do think that you need to put down the NPA KoolAid and review some pay scales. We are not the lowest. Not the highest either. We all need to be careful of falling into the United/Delta mentality.

As far as your comments about a majority; that's not what I said. I said many, meaning my own little non-scietific poll of people I fly with. And perhaps many was a poor choice of words. But, several have unreasonable and unrealistic wants and expectations. And as far as the NPA, almost no one I talk to is happy with them. I know I'm not.

As far as me being "right" or "wrong", too many people see too many things in black or white, neo-con or liberal, CNN or FOX, left or right, Ann Coulter or Michael Moore. There's a middle ground, a compromise, and I wish more people would focus on that in many aspects of life.

Now, I invited you to leave because you post continuously on many threads what you can and can not accept from the position you currently hold. It seems it's about nothing but money to you. All that I was suggesting is that maybe you should chase it. Go where the money is. That apparantly will make you happy. I was offering an alternative, that's all. You say you came because of potential.....well, potential does not always realize itself. Maybe you should have gone for the sure thing (FedEx, CAL, UPS, etc)

Sorry if I offended you...but this is not that bad of a place to work, and frankly, I'm tired of hearing that it is.

 

[skiddriver]

As a management puke I have to agree with PilotYip on this. Degrees are over rated and it is the last thing I look for in hiring. Given a choice between a 22yr old with any kind of work experience or a 22yr old coming out of school, 9 times out of 10 I will go for the experience. For an adult in the work force it is completely irrelevant. First you aren't hiring a 40yr old into an entry level position. Second what they learned in school 20yrs ago probably was forgotten or no longer applies. Third I am again looking at their experience in whatever their background is and seeing if that knowledge and work ethic can help my company.

Every company is different. When I got hired as my company's aviation manager (manage 15 fixed and rotary wing contractors) they wanted a 4-year degree, ATP, dual rating, and leadership and management experience. Missing any piece, no interview. Didn't matter that my BS in Math was 24 years old and my MS in Aviation Systems was 8 years old, they wanted to see a degree.

I just hired an assistant. Same requirements. Got a real quality guy.

This company is run by engineers and they put a lot of stock in credentials. If you don't have them, you don't get a chance to come in and impress at the interview.

Can you get a job without a degree? Sure. Will a multi-national company hire someone who has to work vertically in the organization from the very bottom to the top without one? Less likely. Why limit yourself?

 

[bravodude]

Give it a break Bravodude. Go study so you can pass your GED!
Mach8

Don't you have to go and complain about how your company sucks or you don't make enough. see ya. looooooser