Impact of Delta Selling Regionals on Flow-through & Flow-back?

[JoeMerchant]

Flowthroughs don't work. You were all suckered yet again...when will we ever learn?

 

[trip]

Yeah, and then what? Delta would have sent the E-175s to Republic or someone else, and then the Compass pilots would have been on the street.

I am all for putting regional flying on our list. But, you have to fix scope first. Absent scope that assures us that flying, Delta will just sell those jets to another regional and we have accomplished nothing.

Delta doesn't have scope?

 

[twobits]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

 

[scarlet]

Before long Delta will be bringing people to the hubs to feed the Regionals, just like US AIR.

USAIR=3500 flights a day= 1900 on RJS.

 

[anewunion]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

very good point.

As far as the flow from CZ. If there is no CZ, there is no contract . .

 

[michael707767]

Delta doesn't have scope?

sure. 76 seats and below can be outsourced. If we had put Compass on our list, Delta would have just shifted that flying to another regional.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Up look at AMR's and Eagles flow though. Look at the law suits and what is going on there and tell me it is working.

That who deal has become a horrible mess.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

sure. 76 seats and below can be outsourced. If we had put Compass on our list, Delta would have just shifted that flying to another regional.

Correct we would have had to pull down the allowable 76 seat jets that were outsourced to make that work. All the single action of adding CPS to the list would have accomplished is adding 400 pilots whose jets would have been awarded to someone else. In effect guaranteeing a furlough of 800 pilots.

To fix that issue scope would have had to have been fixed too.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I didn't say anything about it not being good to apply, network, and work hard to get hired, just as we've always done.

What I *DID* say was that I believe it would be egregiously WRONG *IF* they canceled the flow-throughs. Like any other employment promise, your wage that you're hired at, your days off, vacation, etc that are all part of your employment agreement, if a flow-through is part of that, then reneging on that agreement is inherently WRONG.

We will see what they do... like I said, I won't be surprised, but will be very disappointed.

Ok Lear,

I hear you. Was it in the Compass contract to have flow-thru? (Im asking?) Unilaterally, that cannot be changed just because they are not wholly owned. There will be lawsuits that's for sure.

Some people need a BIG time reality check. When I came to Delta, I was making more as an F/O than some of our Captain's today. Things change, to say that these talented airmen went to an airline because of a promise to be hired by Delta is an outright lie or the people involved need a real head check.

They can always use the PIC time they have logged and get a job by filling out an APP! "What? You mean I have to interview too?? Awww, damn....man, becoming a mainline Pilot is hard!!!"

Again, nothing in stone about NOT flowing these guys thru, so let's wait and see. And as a sidenote, DALPA shouldn't lift a finger in negotiating capital to guarantee a flow-through for the subsidiaries that benefitted HUGE from our cutting flying. The only reason there was jobs there was because we loosened the scope. Period, end of story.

Rant over

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

No....

From Joe Kolshak (Delta President) standing in my cockpit the day after selling ASA, "We couldn't sell Comair becuase nobody wants them. They struck the airline and they are all there for life at the top of the payscale. No manager could integrate that."

I thought a nuke would only leave cockroaches as the only living thing, after all this, put Comair on that list.

 

[avrorj-85]

Ok Lear,

I hear you. Was it in the Compass contract to have flow-thru? (Im asking?) Unilaterally, that cannot be changed just because they are not wholly owned. There will be lawsuits that's for sure.

Some people need a BIG time reality check. When I came to Delta, I was making more as an F/O than some of our Captain's today. Things change, to say that these talented airmen went to an airline because of a promise to be hired by Delta is an outright lie or the people involved need a real head check.

They can always use the PIC time they have logged and get a job by filling out an APP! "What? You mean I have to interview too?? Awww, damn....man, becoming a mainline Pilot is hard!!!"

Again, nothing in stone about NOT flowing these guys thru, so let's wait and see. And as a sidenote, DALPA shouldn't lift a finger in negotiating capital to guarantee a flow-through for the subsidiaries that benefitted HUGE from our cutting flying. The only reason there was jobs there was because we loosened the scope. Period, end of story.

Rant over

Hey BL, sounds like it is time for some more fiber there, buddy!

 

[Lear70]

Ok Lear,

I hear you. Was it in the Compass contract to have flow-thru? (Im asking?) Unilaterally, that cannot be changed just because they are not wholly owned. There will be lawsuits that's for sure.

Actually, I believe it *IS* in the Compass contract. However, there's some trigger language in the event of a sale which *might* be read as a way to void the agreement (at least that's what I'm hearing). We'll just have to wait and watch it play out...

Some people need a BIG time reality check. When I came to Delta, I was making more as an F/O than some of our Captain's today. Things change, to say that these talented airmen went to an airline because of a promise to be hired by Delta is an outright lie or the people involved need a real head check.

Ummm, calling people a liar is a bit harsh, don't you think? Here's a tidbit for you: when I got caught up in all my AirTran crap, I applied all over the place, but the ONLY Regional I applied to? Compass, for two reasons: relatively (at the time) quick upgrades, and the flow-through.

When making a choice of employers, people may very well use that as a reason to choose one over the other, just like you might choose one that has a faster upgrade track at the time (although that's not contractual and could easily fall through), or one that pays during training or at least puts you up and pays per diem, many things that may be contractual in nature that you expect to happen when you sign on.

To say that one requires "a real head check" while another item does not seems a bit selective. Look, I know you're AT mainline Delta and, therefore, not fond of the flow-through. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't fault the people who chose their employer based on that contractual flow-through. There's no reason to bash the people when it's the flow-through POLICY you don't like...

Just a thought.

Again, nothing in stone about NOT flowing these guys thru, so let's wait and see. And as a sidenote, DALPA shouldn't lift a finger in negotiating capital to guarantee a flow-through for the subsidiaries that benefitted HUGE from our cutting flying. The only reason there was jobs there was because we loosened the scope. Period, end of story.

Rant over

No argument about the loss of Scope; that's been one of my biggest soap boxes since I got involved in ALPA.

However, I don't foresee DALPA doing anything about this issue, primarily because I believe the majority of DALPA pilots feel the same way you do about flow-throughs without interviews. I just feel badly for the pilots who got furloughed from good jobs, took the least crappy of a Regional job, then get the carpet yanked out from under them AGAIN.

Hope it doesn't play out that way...

 

[trip]

sure. 76 seats and below can be outsourced. If we had put Compass on our list, Delta would have just shifted that flying to another regional.

True the company could have done that but if DL wanted more 76 seaters or say new 90-110 seaters they then would have had an airframe and typed pilots.
I had heard the Compass operation was loosing money flying the Canadian stuff anyway so maybe it is not such a profitable airframe. Same seats as the CR9 and 10,000# heavier, (I know much more comfy inside). Anyways, guess it's water under the bridge.

 

[jonjuan]

I just feel badly for the pilots who got furloughed from good jobs, took the least crappy of a Regional job, then get the carpet yanked out from under them AGAIN.

Least crappy? Not so sure about that. I have heard many at the regionals say that cpz is at or near the top of the crap heap in many regards (pay, work rules, etc.) especially when flying major airline equipment. People faulted other for going to mesa for the same reasons. It seems they sold their souls to the devil for a chance at the golden ticket which is now tarnished.

 

[pilotguy143]

Least crappy? Not so sure about that. I have heard many at the regionals say that cpz is at or near the top of the crap heap in many regards (pay, work rules, etc.) especially when flying major airline equipment. People faulted other for going to mesa for the same reasons. It seems they sold their souls to the devil for a chance at the golden ticket which is now tarnished.

So, why doesn't Delta staple Comair to the bottom of the pilot list? I went to CMR to not sell my soul to the cheapest bidder; so why not in source us? I know our MEC's have some bad blood (most likely because of our MEC), but things have changed.

I've been at Comair for 4 years and don't plan to know everything that happened during the strike or when delta was furloughing, however, I believe it is in our best interests to get more jobs and airframes to mainline, and save Comair pilots' jobs.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Actually, I believe it *IS* in the Compass contract. However, there's some trigger language in the event of a sale which *might* be read as a way to void the agreement (at least that's what I'm hearing). We'll just have to wait and watch it play out...


Ummm, calling people a liar is a bit harsh, don't you think? Here's a tidbit for you: when I got caught up in all my AirTran crap, I applied all over the place, but the ONLY Regional I applied to? Compass, for two reasons: relatively (at the time) quick upgrades, and the flow-through.

When making a choice of employers, people may very well use that as a reason to choose one over the other, just like you might choose one that has a faster upgrade track at the time (although that's not contractual and could easily fall through), or one that pays during training or at least puts you up and pays per diem, many things that may be contractual in nature that you expect to happen when you sign on.

To say that one requires "a real head check" while another item does not seems a bit selective. Look, I know you're AT mainline Delta and, therefore, not fond of the flow-through. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't fault the people who chose their employer based on that contractual flow-through. There's no reason to bash the people when it's the flow-through POLICY you don't like...

Just a thought.


No argument about the loss of Scope; that's been one of my biggest soap boxes since I got involved in ALPA.

However, I don't foresee DALPA doing anything about this issue, primarily because I believe the majority of DALPA pilots feel the same way you do about flow-throughs without interviews. I just feel badly for the pilots who got furloughed from good jobs, took the least crappy of a Regional job, then get the carpet yanked out from under them AGAIN.

Hope it doesn't play out that way...

Lear,

You are right....Liar is wrong words...... Misled career planning is where I was going.

You got me wrong about the flow-thru. I am ALL FOR IT!! I say again, ALL FOR IT!!

I think if these pilots were fine yesterday to fly Delta ticketed people around then they should be fine to hire on here today. Growth to the bottom of our list is personally good by me.

What I am entirely against is the whining and crying about this deal by the flow-thru regional pilots. When Delta was rumoring about furloughing, ALL we heard here and in private circles was how "we are gonna get screwed", as if this flow-BACK wasn't explained or described to them when they applied. Now, we hear the latest about empty promises and how DALPA, where I drop my dues money, should spend money and political capital defending these same pilots. Forget it........I'm tired of the whining by some pilots who think the only way to a major cockpit is by a flow-thru.....

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Straight from our DELTA pilot contract.....You are welcome!!

"If the provisions of the flow agreements (NWA LOA 2006-10 and LOA 2006-14) stop , there is an immediate snap back of 76 seaters to 85.The current limit is 153."

Mesaba does not have this clause and any sale voided the flow, but the agreement can be readdressed as a result of the sale. There is no way they are going to park 90 airplanes just because of a flow through agreement. So all the crybabies on here who singled out the Delta Pilots as not doing anything to help them, better do your research next time before you post.

 

[Flybywire44]

You know... Northwest HR told me to leave ASA and go to Compass; they said that would be the fastest way to get to Northwest (now Delta). Assuming the flow through is terminated... Boy, was that guy wrong!

 

[Caveman]

The deal was real simple. If Compass/Mesaba pilots agreed to be furlough fodder they would get to flow up when hiring resumes. No amount of splitting hairs and contractual wordplay will change that.

This flow through means nothing to you guys. It doesn't affect your seniority, career expectations or paycheck in any way at all. I can't for the life of me understand why some of you are against it. Are you really going to screw a guy out of a chance to land a major airline job just because he didn't interview the same way you did? Is it really all just about ego?

If you want to change the agreement grandfather in the pilots currently at Compass/Mesaba and then close the door, but don't screw the guys that upheld their end of the deal by putting themselves at risk. It's just not right.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Caveman?? Screw the guys?? Uphold what deal?? It's not my fight.....there you go making your problems mine.

Honestly....I'm not sure where you think we at Delta hate the flowthru. We never really tal about it. It's just not that important to my daily life there. It sounds like the pilots who are at the regionals are hung on its every word and it takes up every conversation.

 

[slapstick]

I agree with Caveman.... coming from a DL guy.

 

[flap operator]

DL must not hate it so much, since everyone will be meeting next week to explore how to keep the deals in place. For the time being, the flow continues until further notice.

 

[Caveman]

Bill, there have been some posts in this thread and others from DAL pilots that suggest they want to opt out of their end of the agreement. You yourself posted about people interviewing. Nobody said DAL pilots were spending a lot of time and energy on this topic, but this thread is about the flow through and you have posted in here multiple times. So it is a timely topic and people are interested in it. I have no dog in the fight, but I do have an opinion on how DAL ought to proceed. YMMV.

 

[Caveman]

DL must not hate it so much, since everyone will be meeting next week to explore how to keep the deals in place. For the time being, the flow continues until further notice.

Good to hear.

 

[hockeypilot44]

The deal was real simple. If Compass/Mesaba pilots agreed to be furlough fodder they would get to flow up when hiring resumes. No amount of splitting hairs and contractual wordplay will change that.

This flow through means nothing to you guys. It doesn't affect your seniority, career expectations or paycheck in any way at all. I can't for the life of me understand why some of you are against it. Are you really going to screw a guy out of a chance to land a major airline job just because he didn't interview the same way you did? Is it really all just about ego?

If you want to change the agreement grandfather in the pilots currently at Compass/Mesaba and then close the door, but don't screw the guys that upheld their end of the deal by putting themselves at risk. It's just not right.

I strongly disagree with the Mesaba flow. Always have. Delta/NWA can only flow back the amount of pilots that flow up. I think it's about 15 right now. That's not much furlough protection. The 15 pilots that did flow up were hired at Mesaba in the mid to late 90's well before the flow was established. Most of them had plenty of opportunities to leave given the fact that just about every airline has hired since they started at Mesaba. These pilots were either really bad at interviewing or couldn't take the initiative to move onto a new job. They finally moved on when a new job was just handed to them. That's fine as they are Delta pilots now, but I see no real disadvantage in ending the Mesaba flow. Mesaba didn't hire pilots that went to Mesaba just so they could flow up. Compass did. I've always been a fan of the Compass flow as I truly believe that the flow and the merger combined saved me a furlough. I personally would never have taken a job at Compass due to a flow, but I can see the Compass pilots point of view. Now that Compass is owned by Trans States, I want to see that flow end, but only after all of the pilots at Compass are given their chance to flow up. I don't think it will happen though. My guess is the top 40 at Compass flow up, then the flow is terminated. I don't think anyone else from Mesaba will flow up.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I agree with you completely, especially the grandfathering. It is the right thing to do. There has been a lot of chest thumping about Dals hiring process. Lots of claims about the quality of hires, as if no other majors had standards. Most of these claims come from relative newhires (07-08). They don't say it but I would bet some of these probably feel that the NWA guys should have had to interview. Every major tells the newhire classes that they are the best, the chosen ones, you will be capt. in 5yrs, etc. Some actually believe it, most don't. It appears this last round of hiring had a larger percentage.

The deal was real simple. If Compass/Mesaba pilots agreed to be furlough fodder they would get to flow up when hiring resumes. No amount of splitting hairs and contractual wordplay will change that.

This flow through means nothing to you guys. It doesn't affect your seniority, career expectations or paycheck in any way at all. I can't for the life of me understand why some of you are against it. Are you really going to screw a guy out of a chance to land a major airline job just because he didn't interview the same way you did? Is it really all just about ego?

If you want to change the agreement grandfather in the pilots currently at Compass/Mesaba and then close the door, but don't screw the guys that upheld their end of the deal by putting themselves at risk. It's just not right.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

lame pilot unions with VAGUE language & inferior lawyers will ALWAYS lose

DL must not hate it so much, since everyone will be meeting next week to explore how to keep the deals in place.

For what?...to give away a bunch of stuff to "win back" what they ALREADY HAD (or LESS)?????????????????

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Flowthroughs don't work. You were all suckered yet again...when will we ever learn?

Neither do frivilous lawsuits. Get back to your rj junior!

 

[DYLIN]

Cobraair757, Caveman, hockeypilot, slapstick, etc., find out who from your MEC is going to this flow meeting next week to discuss it and write your opinions to them. If they see this is the opinion of many pilots then that may help them make a decision.

 

[General Lee]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

Delta apparently wants out of the regional business. (ownership) DL offered Comair for sale too, but so far nobody has made an offer supposedly. Eventually someone will I bet. Maybe Orenstein will make an offer?


Bye Bye---General Lee