Impact of Delta Selling Regionals on Flow-through & Flow-back?

[JumpersAway]

Delta apparently wants out of the regional business. (ownership) DL offered Comair for sale too, but so far nobody has made an offer supposedly. Eventually someone will I bet. Maybe Orenstein will make an offer?


Bye Bye---General Lee

He's busy plucking the dryer lint off what little pocket change he has left for his final financial tally. Meanwhile, the Grim Reaper peers over his shoulder, prepared to reep the soul of the terminally ill entity which we call Mesa Sux.......er, I mean Mesa.........................

I sense that Comair's demise has already been fortold amungst the ranks of management. It's just not been spun into fruition yet. I smell another dead reagional come the fall- once capacity is reduced with a fall draw down in scheduling. However, the best parts will be plucked by another carrier, while the rest is left to languish in obscurity...................

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I sense that Comair's demise has already been fortold amungst the ranks of management. It's just not been spun into fruition yet. I smell another dead reagional come the fall- once capacity is reduced with a fall draw down in scheduling.

I keep seeing this but still don't get WHY if this is true they are RIGHT NOW in the process of making a big crew base in DTW (of all places)??????????

Also, ASA just recalled ALL it's furloughs....

Doesn't sound like Delta "Getting out of the regional business" to me...

...and raises an untold amount of red flags that should be in the forefront of your pilots' minds while your mgt tries to distract you with all the "good this means for the pilots," which seems so contrary to the reality of the economy's actual direction.

Previously, it was too expensive for them to furlough...what's limiting them now?

Don't confuse the "busy" summer with the realities of the Fall/Winter, in a continuously downward economy. When the news from your company is so completely opposite to the economic realities of the rest of the country, question it.

Pilot unions too often get willingly led like naive sheep to the slaughter. Demand more from those who are taking what is the most obscene amount of dues in the industry to represent the (arguably to some) biggest airline.

Also with every LOA signed, and vague contract paragrah added, ask yourself "How could this be manipulated by a future Crandall when Anderson (inevitably as he will sonner than later) leaves (or gets mad at the pilots as in the past at NWA)?

Just sayin'.
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Excellent post from another (publicly viewable) board:

"Yesterday, 07:13 PM #186 by poster "Ad Lib"

A Fait Acompli
Richard Anderson's first public comments say a lot: Quote:
“We have a number of contractual relationships, and I believe that we can get all of the quality lift from our regional carriers without having those obligations on our balance sheet,” he said.
This statement:
(1) Explains why the sale price had little apparent relation to the value, or future revenue stream, represented to the regional holding companies.
(2) Explains the sale is an important part of our push to eliminate debt. One quick and easy way is to move balance sheet liabilities to another party
- This likely means the lessors and banks had to agree to the sale and were in the loop
- One reason to fix our balance sheet now is to obtain cheaper financing for fleet renewal
- Financial pressure is being used to justify outsourcing (which is my concern on the 100 seat jet too)
(3) This resonates with ALPA's long standing policy of encouraging the Company to avoid spending money on "Regional Jets." From a "unity" perspective this push is significant because it results in the further dilution of flying. It is the reason why a wholly owned airline's growth stagnates and reverses ( as seen at ASA and Comair ) and the reason flying is redirected outside the Company ... often times, outside of ALPA's membership. Again, at Northwest wrote this blatantly into its contractual language. Consider the scope bullet points of the NWA Bridge Agreement and tell me this does not sound familiar. Quote:
Section 1 was amended to allow NW code to be placed on forty (40) additional RJs
• These aircraft must not be currently on order, ordered, purchased, leased, or financed by NWA or any NWA affiliate
• These aircraft must be owned and/or leased and operated by a carrier other than NWA or any NWA affiliate (i.e., must be a contract with another operator)
While talking about "brand scope" negotiators actively work to place flying outside the parent company to avoid spending money on airplanes & operations they don't like. In fact, many felt that profits from concessionary contracts were being funneled into RJ purchases and wanted the parent Companies out of the RJ business.

While current members of our MEC state shock and surprise by the sale the MEC has a pretty long track record of voting "not to study" the Compass divestiture and separating the representational structure to clean up labor issues in advance of a sale. Within the innermost circle, I would surmise progress was being made to facilitate this sale for years.

I doubt Delta management would have made such a move, knowing full well the labor implications, without agreement from ALPA. If anyone wants to bet a round of Sweetwater 420, I'm guessing ALPA will soon come out with a statement to the effect of "nothing to see here, move along ... ."
Last edited by Ad Lib : Yesterday at 07:30 PM. "
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[Voice Of Reason]

Delta Air Lines Has Trended 15.99% Lower In Past 73 Days

" Post Earnings Update: Delta Air Lines Has Trended 15.99% Lower In Past 73 Days (DAL)


Written on Sat, 07/03/2010 - 9:09am
By Chip Brian

When Delta Air Lines (NYSEAL) reported earnings 73 days ago on April 20, 2010, analysts, on average, expected the company to report a loss of $0.23 on sales of $7 billion.

The company actually reported a loss of $0.23 on sales of $6.8 billion, matching EPS estimates and missing revenues estimates by $161 million.
Since the company's report, share of Delta Air Lines have fallen from $13.13 to $11.03, representing a loss of 15.99% in the past 73 days.

SmarTrend is bearish on shares of Delta Air Lines and our subscribers were alerted to Sell on June 25, 2010 at $12.08. The stock has fallen 8.7% since the alert was issued."

--SmarTrend

 

[AnimalTale]

" Post Earnings Update: Delta Air Lines Has Trended 15.99% Lower In Past 73 Days (DAL)


Written on Sat, 07/03/2010 - 9:09am
By Chip Brian

When Delta Air Lines (NYSEAL) reported earnings 73 days ago on April 20, 2010, analysts, on average, expected the company to report a loss of $0.23 on sales of $7 billion.

The company actually reported a loss of $0.23 on sales of $6.8 billion, matching EPS estimates and missing revenues estimates by $161 million.
Since the company's report, share of Delta Air Lines have fallen from $13.13 to $11.03, representing a loss of 15.99% in the past 73 days.

SmarTrend is bearish on shares of Delta Air Lines and our subscribers were alerted to Sell on June 25, 2010 at $12.08. The stock has fallen 8.7% since the alert was issued."

--SmarTrend

I am confused; the whole market is tanking and so is the airline sector. Is SmartTrend a service? or did you post this to point out their accuracy? If so are they always this accurate?

Thank you,

CYA

 

[MooneyPilot]

Flow through to Trans State now! O Yea!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The market is emotional. Wait for our 2Q earnings.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Even if they kept the flow BACK, wouldn't DL guys who flowback no longer be represented by Dalpa (or their own company for that matter)...

Further since they got rid of them who would pay for flowback training?

What is left to protect bottom Delta guys from being furlough fodder (and senior guys from being downwardly displaced) now that the high cost of flowback is no longer an issue?

If they kept the flowback would it be mandatory (thus the company not being on the hook for unemployment/furlough "benefits")?

On a slightly different note, in addition to this selloff event (and subsequent flow and high cost of furlough protection loss), have you noticed other veiled signs that your union might be helping MGT prepare for making pilot furloughs easier?

ie: such as combing int'l & domestic trips (which would require less pilots since less can do both), lowering guarentees over the past year or so, bit by bit scope concessions (that all together create a huge mountain), schemes to dual-qualify? The list goes on an on (under the table tactics by MANY major airlines' mgt that manage to slip by individually, but causes great distress to the pilot group as a whole). Then enter the never-ending cycle of losing and later renegotiating parts of the very things you USED to have and previously negotiated away and back repeatedly (thus never getting ahead...in fact, very much BACKWARD).

Also, have all of the Previous NW hardcore union types just given up? It seems it would be highly beneficial to ALL Delta pilots if you had a good slew of those "won't back down" types in there rather than EB's golf buddies and other narcissistic types easily charmed &/or manipulated by executive types.

 

[N813CA]

When Midatlantic was sold from USAIR to Republic they lost their flow. I am guessing these two carriers will to as your right who would pay for what. If Delta wants a flow it will have to be with Comair, and I am guessing that will never happen as nobody wants it at either group.

 

[PCL_128]

Flowthroughs don't work. You were all suckered yet again...when will we ever learn?

Not so fast, Joey. Nothing has been terminated yet. The parties all have to meet and discuss continuing the flow. Plus, there is the snap-back to lower aircraft limits that several people have mentioned here that could be a big incentive for Delta to keep the flows going.

 

[OPECJet]

When Midatlantic was sold from USAIR to Republic they lost their flow. I am guessing these two carriers will to as your right who would pay for what. If Delta wants a flow it will have to be with Comair, and I am guessing that will never happen as nobody wants it at either group.

Not to split hairs, but MidTitanic WAS USAir.

 

[Draginass]

Has the DALPA MEC decided that they've given away enough scope already, or are they willing to sell out the profession even more for a few more pieces of silver?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Has Delta announced their intention to stop the flow? Nope, they have not taken a position yet.

Has CPS actually been sold or has there just been an agreement to sell them to TSH?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I agree with Caveman.... coming from a DL guy.

Slappy,

judging by the EMB and your hours, you must be a JUNIOR DAL guy.....of course the flow up/down is a big deal to you. Come on....when was the last conversation at Delta you had over the flowthru?? Tell the truth....

 

[RedRum]

Here's a tidbit for you: when I got caught up in all my AirTran crap, I applied all over the place, but the ONLY Regional I applied to? Compass, for two reasons: relatively (at the time) quick upgrades, and the flow-through.

When making a choice of employers, people may very well use that as a reason to choose one over the other, just like you might choose one that has a faster upgrade track at the time (although that's not contractual and could easily fall through), or one that pays during training or at least puts you up and pays per diem, many things that may be contractual in nature that you expect to happen when you sign on.

Lear,

When I signed up at NWA, I signed up for a pension and the dream of never being furloughed. I also thought that I might be upgrading within 4-5 years. I also thought that my seniority would never be subverted by a bunch of underhanded SLI arbitrators.

You guys are going to have to learn at some point, this industry is not all rosy. I know it hasn't been easy for some of you guys at Compass, and I would never want to characterize EVERY Compass pilot as having it easy. BUT, you have to realize that this industry is cyclical. There are going to be commitments that are not met. You are getting a little dose of that right now.

I hope we are able to work out an agreement for you guys, but that agreement is going to have to ensure flowback protection or some sort of financial assurances from Delta for DELTA pilots. Compass was bought and paid for by NWA pilots. People seem to lose sight of this.

Not trying to get you all riled up, just try to keep in mind that there are people at the majors that were promised a lot of things and ended up taking a big bit out of a $hit sandwich.

Best of luck to everyone involved.

 

[FBN0223]

Without flow-down provisions into the most Captain senior positions, I would be against any flow-up to Delta. Calling my reps on this one.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

When I signed up at NWA, I signed up for a pension and the dream of never being furloughed. I also thought that I might be upgrading within 4-5 years. I also thought that my seniority would never be subverted by a bunch of underhanded SLI arbitrators.

You guys are going to have to learn at some point, this industry is not all rosy. I know it hasn't been easy for some of you guys at Compass, and I would never want to characterize EVERY Compass pilot as having it easy. BUT, you have to realize that this industry is cyclical. There are going to be commitments that are not met. You are getting a little dose of that right now.

I hope we are able to work out an agreement for you guys, but that agreement is going to have to ensure flowback protection or some sort of financial assurances from Delta for DELTA pilots. Compass was bought and paid for by NWA pilots. People seem to lose sight of this.

Not trying to get you all riled up, just try to keep in mind that there are people at the majors that were promised a lot of things and ended up taking a big bit out of a $hit sandwich.

Best of luck to everyone involved.

By "You Guys", I'm assuming you're talking to the Compass pilots... I don't work there, only applied there after AirTran issues.

However, many of us have "paid our dues", about 3 times over. When I got hired at AirTran, I had gone through 2 companies shutting down and 1 furlough, 5 type ratings, and had twice as much flight time as most of the Captains I was flying with. Point being? Many of the pilots at Compass (and other Regionals) are in the same boat, and may even be more experienced than you, so you might want to save the "You guys will have to learn..." lecture for the unwashed.

As far as the rest of it, what happened in bankruptcy was unfair to all the pilots at most of those carriers, and I certainly hope that as your own contracts come up for Section 6, that you will be successful in taking back much of what was promised you when you hired on.

Fair is fair is fair. No matter *WHO* you work for.

/soapbox

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Has the DALPA MEC decided that they've given away enough scope already, or are they willing to sell out the profession even more for a few more pieces of silver?

Listen to yourself....

Did DALPA have anything to do with the sale of these airlines? What does this sale have to do with scope??

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Listen to yourself....

Did DALPA have anything to do with the sale of these airlines? What does this sale have to do with scope??

Bill:
Sometimes people are so out of touch with reality, it's just more fun to watch them relish in their own stupidity.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Even if they kept the flow BACK, wouldn't DL guys who flowback no longer be represented by Dalpa (or their own company for that matter)...

Further since they got rid of them who would pay for flowback training?

What is left to protect bottom Delta guys from being furlough fodder (and senior guys from being downwardly displaced) now that the high cost of flowback is no longer an issue?

If they kept the flowback would it be mandatory (thus the company not being on the hook for unemployment/furlough "benefits")?

On a slightly different note, in addition to this selloff event (and subsequent flow and high cost of furlough protection loss), have you noticed other veiled signs that your union might be helping MGT prepare for making pilot furloughs easier?

ie: such as combing int'l & domestic trips (which would require less pilots since less can do both), lowering guarentees over the past year or so, bit by bit scope concessions (that all together create a huge mountain), schemes to dual-qualify? The list goes on an on (under the table tactics by MANY major airlines' mgt that manage to slip by individually, but causes great distress to the pilot group as a whole). Then enter the never-ending cycle of losing and later renegotiating parts of the very things you USED to have and previously negotiated away and back repeatedly (thus never getting ahead...in fact, very much BACKWARD).

Also, have all of the Previous NW hardcore union types just given up? It seems it would be highly beneficial to ALL Delta pilots if you had a good slew of those "won't back down" types in there rather than EB's golf buddies and other narcissistic types easily charmed &/or manipulated by executive types.

All good points.....they might just be setting up for a grand furlough scheme, then why are they planning to hire 300 more pilots?? Furlough one and all the 76 seaters snap to 70 with a flow or not. Overtime flying handed out like candy, new (New to Delta) airframes on property......too much need for pilots as of right now. I'm not new to this business to think that could change tomorrow.

It's a good thought, but I think the other cards play that as not feasible in the near future.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Bill:
Sometimes people are so out of touch with reality, it's just more fun to watch them relish in their own stupidity.

Yep,

And here I thought CRJ and TankerA$$Clown was the source of all stupidity. Speaking of that little sad troll CRJ, he's been trying to start static on another thread.....go get him!!!:uzi: