Impact of Delta Selling Regionals on Flow-through & Flow-back?

[michael707767]

yeah, but the delta pilots get to keep their jobs. thats all he was getting at.

Hmm, what about the Compass pilots? IMHO, ALPA sold them out by not keeping them in our MEC. I have no doubt the sellout continues, with ALPA being on board with denying them a flow. They deserve better than that.

 

[johnsonrod]

If people were hired with the promise of a flow-up (and NWA's full knowledge at the time), then the current pilots should probably be grandfathered in (not new pilots going forward). Otherwise we are talking about bait-and-switch. Sure, business needs change but the newhires joined in good faith with that understanding - many left other flying positions for the opportunity... It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[livin'thesim]

If people were hired with the promise of a flow-up (and NWA's full knowledge at the time), then the current pilots should probably be grandfathered in (not new pilots going forward). Otherwise we are talking about bait-and-switch. Sure, business needs change but the newhires joined in good faith with that understanding - many left other flying positions for the opportunity... It will be interesting to see what happens.

Well, yeah, but flow-through agreements have a history of disappointing.

I considered applying at Compass back when they started, and it looked like a very good deal at the time. But I was always skeptical of the flow.

It seems like one of those too-good-to-be-true things.

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

If people were hired with the promise of a flow-up (and NWA's full knowledge at the time), then the current pilots should probably be grandfathered in (not new pilots going forward). Otherwise we are talking about bait-and-switch. Sure, business needs change but the newhires joined in good faith with that understanding - many left other flying positions for the opportunity... It will be interesting to see what happens.

When Continental spun off COEX into XJT, they terminated the flow through. A deal was worked out to give the upper part of the senority list a preferential interview, but that was it. Bottom line, I doubt DAL has any requirement to give current compass pilots anything going forward. Sucks, but that's the way it goes.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Oh ok.....VOR!!

So should I strike over this?? Should I bleed a river over this?? Does DALPA run the company??

Take this thread to the Regional board becuase that's where it belongs

 

[Lear70]

Oh ok.....VOR!!

So should I strike over this?? Should I bleed a river over this?? Does DALPA run the company??

Take this thread to the Regional board becuase that's where it belongs

Not a chance. It stays.

This is important, as a lot of people expected their flow-through agreement to a Legacy carrier to be honored. If it's not, it has a lot of implications moving forward for EVERY Major airline pilot who might be furloughed in the future and who goes to work for a Regional at the bottom of the F/O list for crap pay simply for the promise of the flow-through.

I won't be highly surprised if they *DO* cancel the flow-throughs, but I *will* be highly disappointed. A lot of people made the choice to go to those carriers based on that; pretty crappy if they take it away.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Ok then Lear....

Riddle me this? What about all the people who filled out apps and hustled to get a job like in the old days? Is it too hard to do again?? Anybody who goes to an airline based on a promise to go somewhere else has flawed logic. The last time the bigs furloughed, only a few took jobs back at the regional, most guys wouldn't want the schedule OR the lifestyle.

Throttle back everybody here and quit the emotional BS, nobody has cancelled the flow-thrus yet.....

I'll be damned surprised if DALPA has any say in this.......

Maybe the Compass people can convince others that they were "hired by Northwest!"

 

[another cfii]

I'll be letting my LEC rep knows how i feel about this issue. It's not about how DALPA will use this as leverage anymore. We're talking about a few hundred fellow pilots that got sold down the river.

If DL cancels the flow all together, there's a hefty penalty to our 76 seat RJ scope, i.e. 86 to be taken out to be exact. It will have to be resolved with DALPA and CPZ MEC. It's gonna be interesting.

 

[Fltlvls]

I'm waiting for GL to chime in on this one!!..He must be too busy eating sundaes on his way to Europe.

 

[Lear70]

I didn't say anything about it not being good to apply, network, and work hard to get hired, just as we've always done.

What I *DID* say was that I believe it would be egregiously WRONG *IF* they canceled the flow-throughs. Like any other employment promise, your wage that you're hired at, your days off, vacation, etc that are all part of your employment agreement, if a flow-through is part of that, then reneging on that agreement is inherently WRONG.

We will see what they do... like I said, I won't be surprised, but will be very disappointed.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Flowthroughs don't work. You were all suckered yet again...when will we ever learn?

 

[trip]

Yeah, and then what? Delta would have sent the E-175s to Republic or someone else, and then the Compass pilots would have been on the street.

I am all for putting regional flying on our list. But, you have to fix scope first. Absent scope that assures us that flying, Delta will just sell those jets to another regional and we have accomplished nothing.

Delta doesn't have scope?

 

[twobits]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

 

[scarlet]

Before long Delta will be bringing people to the hubs to feed the Regionals, just like US AIR.

USAIR=3500 flights a day= 1900 on RJS.

 

[anewunion]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

very good point.

As far as the flow from CZ. If there is no CZ, there is no contract . .

 

[michael707767]

Delta doesn't have scope?

sure. 76 seats and below can be outsourced. If we had put Compass on our list, Delta would have just shifted that flying to another regional.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Up look at AMR's and Eagles flow though. Look at the law suits and what is going on there and tell me it is working.

That who deal has become a horrible mess.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

sure. 76 seats and below can be outsourced. If we had put Compass on our list, Delta would have just shifted that flying to another regional.

Correct we would have had to pull down the allowable 76 seat jets that were outsourced to make that work. All the single action of adding CPS to the list would have accomplished is adding 400 pilots whose jets would have been awarded to someone else. In effect guaranteeing a furlough of 800 pilots.

To fix that issue scope would have had to have been fixed too.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I didn't say anything about it not being good to apply, network, and work hard to get hired, just as we've always done.

What I *DID* say was that I believe it would be egregiously WRONG *IF* they canceled the flow-throughs. Like any other employment promise, your wage that you're hired at, your days off, vacation, etc that are all part of your employment agreement, if a flow-through is part of that, then reneging on that agreement is inherently WRONG.

We will see what they do... like I said, I won't be surprised, but will be very disappointed.

Ok Lear,

I hear you. Was it in the Compass contract to have flow-thru? (Im asking?) Unilaterally, that cannot be changed just because they are not wholly owned. There will be lawsuits that's for sure.

Some people need a BIG time reality check. When I came to Delta, I was making more as an F/O than some of our Captain's today. Things change, to say that these talented airmen went to an airline because of a promise to be hired by Delta is an outright lie or the people involved need a real head check.

They can always use the PIC time they have logged and get a job by filling out an APP! "What? You mean I have to interview too?? Awww, damn....man, becoming a mainline Pilot is hard!!!"

Again, nothing in stone about NOT flowing these guys thru, so let's wait and see. And as a sidenote, DALPA shouldn't lift a finger in negotiating capital to guarantee a flow-through for the subsidiaries that benefitted HUGE from our cutting flying. The only reason there was jobs there was because we loosened the scope. Period, end of story.

Rant over

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

No....

From Joe Kolshak (Delta President) standing in my cockpit the day after selling ASA, "We couldn't sell Comair becuase nobody wants them. They struck the airline and they are all there for life at the top of the payscale. No manager could integrate that."

I thought a nuke would only leave cockroaches as the only living thing, after all this, put Comair on that list.