Impact of Delta Selling Regionals on Flow-through & Flow-back?

[JoeMerchant]

Flowthroughs don't work. You were all suckered yet again...when will we ever learn?

 

[trip]

Yeah, and then what? Delta would have sent the E-175s to Republic or someone else, and then the Compass pilots would have been on the street.

I am all for putting regional flying on our list. But, you have to fix scope first. Absent scope that assures us that flying, Delta will just sell those jets to another regional and we have accomplished nothing.

Delta doesn't have scope?

 

[twobits]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

 

[scarlet]

Before long Delta will be bringing people to the hubs to feed the Regionals, just like US AIR.

USAIR=3500 flights a day= 1900 on RJS.

 

[anewunion]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

very good point.

As far as the flow from CZ. If there is no CZ, there is no contract . .

 

[michael707767]

Delta doesn't have scope?

sure. 76 seats and below can be outsourced. If we had put Compass on our list, Delta would have just shifted that flying to another regional.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Up look at AMR's and Eagles flow though. Look at the law suits and what is going on there and tell me it is working.

That who deal has become a horrible mess.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

sure. 76 seats and below can be outsourced. If we had put Compass on our list, Delta would have just shifted that flying to another regional.

Correct we would have had to pull down the allowable 76 seat jets that were outsourced to make that work. All the single action of adding CPS to the list would have accomplished is adding 400 pilots whose jets would have been awarded to someone else. In effect guaranteeing a furlough of 800 pilots.

To fix that issue scope would have had to have been fixed too.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I didn't say anything about it not being good to apply, network, and work hard to get hired, just as we've always done.

What I *DID* say was that I believe it would be egregiously WRONG *IF* they canceled the flow-throughs. Like any other employment promise, your wage that you're hired at, your days off, vacation, etc that are all part of your employment agreement, if a flow-through is part of that, then reneging on that agreement is inherently WRONG.

We will see what they do... like I said, I won't be surprised, but will be very disappointed.

Ok Lear,

I hear you. Was it in the Compass contract to have flow-thru? (Im asking?) Unilaterally, that cannot be changed just because they are not wholly owned. There will be lawsuits that's for sure.

Some people need a BIG time reality check. When I came to Delta, I was making more as an F/O than some of our Captain's today. Things change, to say that these talented airmen went to an airline because of a promise to be hired by Delta is an outright lie or the people involved need a real head check.

They can always use the PIC time they have logged and get a job by filling out an APP! "What? You mean I have to interview too?? Awww, damn....man, becoming a mainline Pilot is hard!!!"

Again, nothing in stone about NOT flowing these guys thru, so let's wait and see. And as a sidenote, DALPA shouldn't lift a finger in negotiating capital to guarantee a flow-through for the subsidiaries that benefitted HUGE from our cutting flying. The only reason there was jobs there was because we loosened the scope. Period, end of story.

Rant over

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

DL will always own at least one regional.... in this case OH. Why? Because Delta always have that much more leverage! 'hey, if you don't do these flights for this amount of money, then we will have Comair do it'. Plus, they know the costs of running a regional airline and can use that in negotiations with others in utilizing vertical integration.


There is no flow through for OH; never has been. The comments on flow through's are right on the money though. How is that AA flow through working for Eagle pilots?

No....

From Joe Kolshak (Delta President) standing in my cockpit the day after selling ASA, "We couldn't sell Comair becuase nobody wants them. They struck the airline and they are all there for life at the top of the payscale. No manager could integrate that."

I thought a nuke would only leave cockroaches as the only living thing, after all this, put Comair on that list.

 

[avrorj-85]

Ok Lear,

I hear you. Was it in the Compass contract to have flow-thru? (Im asking?) Unilaterally, that cannot be changed just because they are not wholly owned. There will be lawsuits that's for sure.

Some people need a BIG time reality check. When I came to Delta, I was making more as an F/O than some of our Captain's today. Things change, to say that these talented airmen went to an airline because of a promise to be hired by Delta is an outright lie or the people involved need a real head check.

They can always use the PIC time they have logged and get a job by filling out an APP! "What? You mean I have to interview too?? Awww, damn....man, becoming a mainline Pilot is hard!!!"

Again, nothing in stone about NOT flowing these guys thru, so let's wait and see. And as a sidenote, DALPA shouldn't lift a finger in negotiating capital to guarantee a flow-through for the subsidiaries that benefitted HUGE from our cutting flying. The only reason there was jobs there was because we loosened the scope. Period, end of story.

Rant over

Hey BL, sounds like it is time for some more fiber there, buddy!

 

[Lear70]

Ok Lear,

I hear you. Was it in the Compass contract to have flow-thru? (Im asking?) Unilaterally, that cannot be changed just because they are not wholly owned. There will be lawsuits that's for sure.

Actually, I believe it *IS* in the Compass contract. However, there's some trigger language in the event of a sale which *might* be read as a way to void the agreement (at least that's what I'm hearing). We'll just have to wait and watch it play out...

Some people need a BIG time reality check. When I came to Delta, I was making more as an F/O than some of our Captain's today. Things change, to say that these talented airmen went to an airline because of a promise to be hired by Delta is an outright lie or the people involved need a real head check.

Ummm, calling people a liar is a bit harsh, don't you think? Here's a tidbit for you: when I got caught up in all my AirTran crap, I applied all over the place, but the ONLY Regional I applied to? Compass, for two reasons: relatively (at the time) quick upgrades, and the flow-through.

When making a choice of employers, people may very well use that as a reason to choose one over the other, just like you might choose one that has a faster upgrade track at the time (although that's not contractual and could easily fall through), or one that pays during training or at least puts you up and pays per diem, many things that may be contractual in nature that you expect to happen when you sign on.

To say that one requires "a real head check" while another item does not seems a bit selective. Look, I know you're AT mainline Delta and, therefore, not fond of the flow-through. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't fault the people who chose their employer based on that contractual flow-through. There's no reason to bash the people when it's the flow-through POLICY you don't like...

Just a thought.

Again, nothing in stone about NOT flowing these guys thru, so let's wait and see. And as a sidenote, DALPA shouldn't lift a finger in negotiating capital to guarantee a flow-through for the subsidiaries that benefitted HUGE from our cutting flying. The only reason there was jobs there was because we loosened the scope. Period, end of story.

Rant over

No argument about the loss of Scope; that's been one of my biggest soap boxes since I got involved in ALPA.

However, I don't foresee DALPA doing anything about this issue, primarily because I believe the majority of DALPA pilots feel the same way you do about flow-throughs without interviews. I just feel badly for the pilots who got furloughed from good jobs, took the least crappy of a Regional job, then get the carpet yanked out from under them AGAIN.

Hope it doesn't play out that way...

 

[trip]

sure. 76 seats and below can be outsourced. If we had put Compass on our list, Delta would have just shifted that flying to another regional.

True the company could have done that but if DL wanted more 76 seaters or say new 90-110 seaters they then would have had an airframe and typed pilots.
I had heard the Compass operation was loosing money flying the Canadian stuff anyway so maybe it is not such a profitable airframe. Same seats as the CR9 and 10,000# heavier, (I know much more comfy inside). Anyways, guess it's water under the bridge.

 

[jonjuan]

I just feel badly for the pilots who got furloughed from good jobs, took the least crappy of a Regional job, then get the carpet yanked out from under them AGAIN.

Least crappy? Not so sure about that. I have heard many at the regionals say that cpz is at or near the top of the crap heap in many regards (pay, work rules, etc.) especially when flying major airline equipment. People faulted other for going to mesa for the same reasons. It seems they sold their souls to the devil for a chance at the golden ticket which is now tarnished.

 

[pilotguy143]

Least crappy? Not so sure about that. I have heard many at the regionals say that cpz is at or near the top of the crap heap in many regards (pay, work rules, etc.) especially when flying major airline equipment. People faulted other for going to mesa for the same reasons. It seems they sold their souls to the devil for a chance at the golden ticket which is now tarnished.

So, why doesn't Delta staple Comair to the bottom of the pilot list? I went to CMR to not sell my soul to the cheapest bidder; so why not in source us? I know our MEC's have some bad blood (most likely because of our MEC), but things have changed.

I've been at Comair for 4 years and don't plan to know everything that happened during the strike or when delta was furloughing, however, I believe it is in our best interests to get more jobs and airframes to mainline, and save Comair pilots' jobs.