ILN ops

[freighthound]

Enjoy life, have a beer and some of that good barbecue down the road.

Now that's something I can agree with.

 

[Cargoav8or]

....................................

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

If your (Astar) owners do not provide the equipment to provide the service DHL customers demand, do not act surprised when the axe falls across the neck. And if/when it does, do not blame ABX. They are just providing the service they always have. WAY WAY before DHL came to gum the works up.

The thing is, that it's not Astars job to provide the service that DHL customers demand, it's Astars job to provide the service that DHL demands. Up until now, that level of service hasn't necesitated Cat II certification. In fact, if FedEx and UPS were not Cat II and III certified, they (DHL) almost certainly would not be considering it now.

I don't know anybody at Astar who blames ABX for their current woes. If anything, they have a lot of respect for ABX for refusing to be dependent upon DHL Int'l for their continued livelihood.

The problems at Astar are that it's caught between a changing business relationship with it's parent company, and the steeply rising fortunes of those employed by others in the same industry. That, compounded by the fact that it's management team is perceived as being devoid of integrity, credibility, or competency, and it's like watching a train wreck in progress. I wish them the best.

 

[erichartmann]

The thing is, that it's not Astars job to provide the service that DHL customers demand, it's Astars job to provide the service that DHL demands. Up until now, that level of service hasn't necesitated Cat II certification. In fact, if FedEx and UPS were not Cat II and III certified, they (DHL) almost certainly would not be considering it now.

While this is true as far as it goes it is also part of the problem with the business model. It all adds to the perception of ABX that DHL Airways & by default Astar is not and has not been in the overnight express business. They have been an air freight carrier where the mere fact that it moved by air was good enough. This was good enough in much of the global economy, but not in the U.S. That business model ceased to work in the U.S. years ago. This is much of the reason DHL was never able to have much of an impact in the U.S. market. It will not remain viable in the global market for much longer if it still is

As a customer of DHL, Astar will not want to provide a more capable & reliable service unless their customer demands it. DHL may want the service & reliability, but don't want to pay Astar to acquire it. Their business model is to simply look around for another carrier who can. Capitalism 101 at work. .

Unfortunately, in this market, given the regulated nature of aviation, the time lag and other factors work against you. A forward thinking management, or one capable of thinking out side the box would have seen what was coming and acted to fill the need. ABX is not wholly free of problems in this area. Hete absolutely refuses to cut doors in the PC 767s unless DHL pays for it. Right now this is a staring match and part of the driving force to have ABX get other business so as not to be dependant on DHL.

I’m not sure if DPWN understood the dynamics of the U.S. market or the changing global market when they purchased DHL. I think they grasp the concept now, but haven’t really figured out how to deal with it. OTOH, I believe they don’t want to simply copy FDX and UPS. They are trying to figure out if their basic model (which appears to be to lease everything and contract service) will continue to work for them. I don’t think it will. In the end I think leasing (& contracting) is more expensive than owning and managing yourself. You are paying the profit margin of the lessor and the contractor. You will have trouble providing the quality service the customer demands if you are subcontracting to the lowest bidder and leasing the cheapest possible equipment. While neither ABX nor Astar is truly the lowest bidder, this is net effect of having more than one carrier. The desire is to have sufficient competition to drive costs down. This is ultimately self defeating as you cannot charge the same price as FDX and UPS for inferior service, and where service rather than price is the determining factor you cannot compete at all.

I think this may change, probably in a cyclic manner. Having competition throughout the process would provide a less expensive product to the customer. It won’t work while service is perceived by the customer to be one of the major components if not the driving force. Right now the customer perceives the price to be within reason for the service provided in the U.S. market.

I don't know anybody at Astar who blames ABX for their current woes. If anything, they have a lot of respect for ABX for refusing to be dependent upon DHL Int'l for their continued livelihood.

That is not what comes across in some of the posts.

The problems at Astar are that it's caught between a changing business relationship with it's parent company, and the steeply rising fortunes of those employed by others in the same industry. That, compounded by the fact that it's management team is perceived as being devoid of integrity, credibility, or competency, and it's like watching a train wreck in progress. I wish them the best.

There you go again. Astar no longer has a parent company. They have a customer. The former relationship with DHL gets in the way of thinking outside the box. It doesn’t help that former DHL Airways employees are now working at DHL.

 

[Cargoav8or]

"There you go again. Astar no longer has a parent company. They have a customer. The former relationship with DHL gets in the way of thinking outside the box. It doesn’t help that former DHL Airways employees are now working at DHL.[/quote]



So says you, which really means nothing to us. The courts will decide it, then and only then will we move on. Sorry, thats just the way it is, quit beating your head against the wall, we understand your concerns. If it goes out of business, all of it, then it does. Life will go on, we will find other jobs and you will be working in Japan, MIA or LAX. We are okay with that, sorry.


Have a nice day.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

There you go again. Astar no longer has a parent company. They have a customer. The former relationship with DHL gets in the way of thinking outside the box.

When a company only has one "customer," the lines between "employer/employee" and "independent contractor" are blurred considerably. FedEx has a similar arrangement with it's so-called "independent" truck drivers, and as I understand it, the courts have generally been ruling in favor of them being defacto employees of FedEx. If I am wrong about this, somebody will correct me, I'm sure.

DHL's employment of "independent contractors" is exactly what UPS was doing at the inception of their airline ops, and the feds told them that it was unnacceptable. I understand the issues of "foreign ownership," but why DHL has been permitted to operate the way they have is beyond me. The laws as currently written effectively preclude any foreign company from operating an express-mail service in the continental United States.

I do believe that DHL is acting outside the box, and that it will probably be necessary at some point for the pilots to do likewise.

 

[erichartmann]

"There you go again. Astar no longer has a parent company. They have a customer. The former relationship with DHL gets in the way of thinking outside the box. It doesn’t help that former DHL Airways employees are now working at DHL.

So says you, which really means nothing to us. The courts will decide it, then and only then will we move on. Sorry, thats just the way it is, quit beating your head against the wall, we understand your concerns. If it goes out of business, all of it, then it does. Life will go on, we will find other jobs and you will be working in Japan, MIA or LAX. We are okay with that, sorry.


Have a nice day.[/quote]

Actually that wasn't my point at all. BTW, assuming no change in ownship laws in the interim, I wonder what the DOT would say vis a vis your operating certificate if the courts did find in your favor and, in essence, found you to have an ongoing parent/subsidiary relationship with DHL.

Have a nice day.

 

[erichartmann]

When a company only has one "customer," the lines between "employer/employee" and "independent contractor" are blurred considerably. FedEx has a similar arrangement with it's so-called "independent" truck drivers, and as I understand it, the courts have generally been ruling in favor of them being defacto employees of FedEx. If I am wrong about this, somebody will correct me, I'm sure.

DHL's employment of "independent contractors" is exactly what UPS was doing at the inception of their airline ops, and the feds told them that it was unnacceptable. I understand the issues of "foreign ownership," but why DHL has been permitted to operate the way they have is beyond me. The laws as currently written effectively preclude any foreign company from operating an express-mail service in the continental United States.

I do believe that DHL is acting outside the box, and that it will probably be necessary at some point for the pilots to do likewise.

My understanding of what occured at UPS is a bit sketchy. I'm not sure it was a matter of law, rather I think it was a matter of FAA policy. If so, FAA policy clearly cannot trump the foreign ownship laws. If you believe the LAW to preclude any foreign company from operating an overnight express service in the U.S. please cite a reference.

 

[shooter]

"There you go again. Astar no longer has a parent company. They have a customer. The former relationship with DHL gets in the way of thinking outside the box. It doesn’t help that former DHL Airways employees are now working at DHL.

So says you, which really means nothing to us. The courts will decide it, then and only then will we move on. Sorry, thats just the way it is, quit beating your head against the wall, we understand your concerns. If it goes out of business, all of it, then it does. Life will go on, we will find other jobs and you will be working in Japan, MIA or LAX. We are okay with that, sorry.


Have a nice day.

[/QUOTE]

I don't understand your argument. Are you saying your company is being run by DHL? Are you willing to swear under oath that a foreign company is controlling your airline?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

My understanding of what occured at UPS is a bit sketchy. I'm not sure it was a matter of law, rather I think it was a matter of FAA policy. If so, FAA policy clearly cannot trump the foreign ownship laws. If you believe the LAW to preclude any foreign company from operating an overnight express service in the U.S. please cite a reference.

True, but FAA policy is that the company exercising "operational control" be the certificate holder. Federal law requires that the certificate holder be owned and controlled by U.S. citizens. What happens when the company calling the shots (in this case, DHL) isn't U.S. owned?

"Overnight express" cannot be adequately served solely through the use of existing airline service, schedules, and available lift. It requires the use of dedicated airplanes flying market-specific schedules. But if "operational control" is assumed to be the province of the certificate holder, and the certificate holder must be of U.S. citizenship, then it would follow that the company calling the shots ("operational control") must be of U.S. ownership as well. DHL is not owned or controlled by U.S. citizens, but they're definitely calling the shots. Why that is, I do not know.

The bottom line is that operationally, both Astar and ABX are defacto "employees" when it suits DHL, and "subcontractors" when it does not.

If they won't s***, I wish they'd at least get off the pot.