ILN ops

[erichartmann]

Don't be too smug there. The same connection might very well be made between DHL and ABX.

Good luck getting the Krauts to honor that contract.


"I believe [this document will bring us] peace in our time."

Neville Chamberlin, upon the signing of the Munich Pact with Germany in 1938

No smugness involved Dan. I was making an observation with respect to the claims Astar's ALPA unit is making vis a vis their CBA and DHL.

ABX has no similar claim.

BTW, if you are going to highlight or add emphasis to portions of my posts you are quoting it would be ethical to note that you have added emphasis.

 

[rotor&wing]

No, not directly. However, labor contracts differ under the law from other contracts. The case I am familiar with suggests that for DHL to have an obligation to honor your labor contract a “parent/subsidiary” relationship must still exist. I believe, if you research it, you will find the corporate entity which was a party to your CBA no longer exists in the eyes of the law. I also think much of this, to include the sale of DHL Airways to Dburg, was done specifically to separate DHL from your CBA and relieve them of the need to honor the clause. In short, I think you have been thoroughly hosed. You and I, and our peers at our respective carriers are pawns in larger game. If you play chess, you will be familiar with what happens to pawns.

Peace

there happens to be a bunch of lawyers (with real legal training) that disagree with the above assumption. your post above shows your knowledge of the law....zip.

 

[AV8OR]

"The case I am familiar with suggests that for DHL to have an obligation to honor your labor contract a “parent/subsidiary” relationship must still exist. I believe, if you research it, you will find the corporate entity which was a party to your CBA no longer exists in the eyes of the law."

With all due respect Erich, to your knowledge of the law, you are wrong on two counts.....

A. Our contract was signed by two (2) parties, "The Company" (DHL Airways now Astar) and a company called DHL Worldwide Express. Specifically they (both of em) are co-signers to our scope remedies section which calls for binding arbitration. They elected to take us to court instead.

B. While DHL Airways, "The Company" (see A. above) is now AStar Air Cargo, the other signer, DHL Worldwide Express is still very much a company. As a matter of fact, they bought Airborne Express and they reside in Plantation, FL.

Here, check it out:

The first article is from 2003 and will illustrate two companies, one of which changed it's name, while the other did not, both of whom signed the CBA......
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BEK/is_7_11/ai_108721134

The second is a transcript from the former CEO himself, speaking to a government panel on postal reform. Take a look at how he breaks own the lines of the company and where his (DHL Worldwide Express) resides....Plantation, Fl.

http://www.postcom.org/public/2004/dhl.pdf

Guess what? Same address then as it was in Nov, when DHL Worldwide Express released this press release....

http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/501394

So, ya see, DHL Worldwide Express is very much in business, and it was they, who violated the contract they signed, and the required arbitration remedy they agreed to.

That's alright though........show me the money!

 

[Johnlp3]

Show me the flying...

 

[flyinboxes]

Show me either! Preferably the money so I can quit!

 

[shooter]

Show me either! Preferably the money so I can quit!

even if it does somehow get to a payday on the contract ( I doubt it ever will), don't expect a payday. I will reference EWW vs. USPS and a signed contract for the company and a signed contract for the pilots. Sure the company got paid but the employees (pilots and pilot contract included) got zip.

Then ask yourself if the company has a contract with DHL. I don't believe they have one except the ACMI contract they now hold.

I'm not a lawyer, but then neither are any of you. Unless you chose pilot career over law which would make no sense.

 

[penguin22]

there happens to be a bunch of lawyers (with real legal training) that disagree with the above assumption. your post above shows your knowledge of the law....zip.

Doesn't matter zip what your lawyers think. What matters is what the Judge thinks.

This Judge doesn't think much of your case.
http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/decisions/alj/JD-64-04.htm


Here's a couple excerpts from the Judge's decision for everyone's reading pleasure:

"On August 28, a hearing was held before District Judge Loretta A. Preska. During the course of that hearing, ALPA reiterated and made clear its position that only ALPA members employed by ASTAR could fly the freight for Airborne that had previously and was presently being flown by the Teamsters Union flight crews of ABX. ALPA takes this position undeterred by the fact that the many differences in the size, operations, pilot qualifications, and capabilities of ASTAR, ABX, and their respective pilots render ALPA incapable of handling much of the ABX flying that ALPA claims for itself. "

"In the present case, ALPA is allegedly threatening DHL Holdings and its subsidiaries, employers within the meaning of Section 2(2), (6), and (7) of the NLRA, with the object of forcing these employers to stop doing business with ABX"

"ALPA has sought, ........ to require DHL Holdings and DHL Worldwide to terminate its subsidiary’s contract with ABX, pursuant to which ABX provides flying services for Airborne, flying that has traditionally and is presently being done by Teamsters members, and to assign this flying to ALPA members. "

"ABX is the primary employer in ALPA’s grievance and counterclaim because ALPA seeks the ABX flying positions for its members. "

"Indeed, ALPA’s claim (that the scope clause in its collective-bargaining agreement requires that ALPA members must handle the flying for airline companies with whom DHL does business) uses the scope clause “as a sword, to reach out and monopolize all the [flying] job tasks for [ALPA] members.”

"The secondary and unlawful aspect of ALPA’s action in filing a grievance against DHL is its intention to require DHL to cease doing business with ABX, at least insofar as the pilots of ABX are not represented for collective-bargaining purposes by ALPA."




Just a guess on my part, but I'm guessing Judge Gontram may have some real legal training too!

 

[AV8OR]

Hey peng, be careful what ya crow about........

Judge Gontram has plenty of knowledge regrading ........NLRB Law. It's not the first time the NLRB has tried to rope in a "labor organization" under the NLRB that we all know is properly grouped under the RLA. If need be, it'l go all the way to the Supreme Court. Not because anyone gives a flip about us, but because if we, airlines, (that includes you my friend) are going to be governed by NLRB rules, then you can take most any airline pilot contract out there and throw it away.

 

[flyinboxes]

Of course a NLRB judge would see it that way. She has no choice. Under the NLRB scope is illegal. This is a RLA case and will one day end up back where it belongs........one day.......one........day.........ZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

 

[penguin22]

Hey peng, be careful what ya crow about........

(not crowing at all, btw...)

I know all about NLRB/RLA issues. That's why our union, when asked, didn't join ABX's complaint.

I'm just pointing out for everyone to see ALPA's job grab attempt. Imagine!... a union, trying to take jobs away from another union!:bomb:

 

[penguin22]

Of course a NLRB judge would see it that way. She has no choice. .

not to be nitpicky, but......

SHE, Judge Loretta A. Preska, is a U.S. District Court Judge, Southern District of New York.

HE, Judge Joseph Gontram, is the Administrative Law Judge for the NLRB

 

[penguin22]

Show me the flying...

Sorry, that flying is ours.

 

[AV8OR]

"I'm just pointing out for everyone to see ALPA's job grab attempt."


How bout just a "job hang on to". If this was a job grab it's absolutely the crappiest one in history.

I don't know why you didn't join the complaint. You appear to agree it's intent and legal position.

Yall keep hashin it out. He11, I'm probably gonna be gone before this crap gets settled anyway.

 

[erichartmann]

there happens to be a bunch of lawyers (with real legal training) that disagree with the above assumption. your post above shows your knowledge of the law....zip.

Ahh, lawyers, with real legal training...

99% of all lawyers make the rest look bad.​

Know the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One is a bottom feeder, the other.... a fish.​

The only good lawyer is your own, until, of course, he loses your case.​

"The first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers..." Shakespeare's Henry VI.​

One lawyer living in a small town will starve. If a second comes to town they will both get rich.​

Ever wonder about lawyer jokes?

For what it's worth, I'm told several lawyer's of my aquaintance essentially share my opinion of your case.

The point.

The point is that lawyers are professional debaters. Its how they earn their living. Lawyers are paid to argue your case which amounts to your point of view. Unless you case is wholly without basis under the law and totally with merit I'm sure you can find a lawyer to argue it, and I wouldn't bet you couldn't do so even if the case had no basis or merit.

A lawyer aquaintence once told me if the law is on your side you argue the law. If the law is against you argue the merit. If you have both on your side dazzle them with your brilliance, if neither, do your best to baffle with bullshi!

As someone else pointed out, many of us will be long retired by the time this is settled.

 

[erichartmann]

"I'm just pointing out for everyone to see ALPA's job grab attempt."


How bout just a "job hang on to". If this was a job grab it's absolutely the crappiest one in history.

I don't know why you didn't join the complaint. You appear to agree it's intent and legal position.

Yall keep hashin it out. He11, I'm probably gonna be gone before this crap gets settled anyway.

Had you been quickly sucessfull, the net effect would likely have cost me my job. It may yet. The freight you were demanding to fly was the freight I was flying. From my POV, crappy or not, it's a grab.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I have a couple of questions...

I'm assuming that the ABX/IBT contract contains some sort of language that governs scope. Does it not specify that ABX pilots, and only ABX pilots, fly Airborne freight? If so...and if Airborne had been the dominant company in the merger of Airborne and DHL...who would now have first dibs on flying the combined freight? ABX pilots, or the former DHL pilots?"

Next question...and this is assuming that your contract contained a section on successorship...does the contract between ABX/IBT and Airborne not apply to any company that takes over Airborne? In other words, had Airborne (not ABX) been sold to another company (it wouldn't even have to be another airfreight company...it could be "Guido's Pizza" for the sake of this discussion) would they not incur the obligation to employ ABX pilots along with the sale? Or could Guido say, "Hey, I don' know nuthin' 'bout no 'contract.' 'Dat was with 'dem other guys. All I know is 'dat I got my own guys, see?" and bring in his own drivers?

Legalities aside, you have 3 entities (DHL, Astar, and ALPA) who have negotiated contracts independently of 3 other entities (Airborne, ABX, and IBT) who have done the same. Even if you had all 6 of those entities in the same room at the same time, it would be virtually impossible to work out an agreement free of conflict and that was fair to all. When such conflicts arise, it's the responsibility of each side's respective lawyer to represent their memberships interest to a Judge. It's not a "job grab," it's their job, period.

As a practical matter, as long as there are two companies (and two unions) of similar size on the property, the flying will likely be apportioned similarly. Just thank your lucky stars there aren't three.

Whoops...I forgot about Polar...

 

[ABXbooger]

Following the sam logic as Dan, why don't we file a suit claiming breach of scope, because a lot of the flying Astar does was the Airborne Express flying that our scope covered. I have no problem allowing Astar to continue flying what they had prior to the ABF merger, ABF as an airline was flying a lot more freight priot to the merger that everyone is now, DHL and ex-ABF freight combined. Things keep going this way, there won't be enough freight for them to fly anyways...

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Following the sam logic as Dan, why don't we file a suit claiming breach of scope, because a lot of the flying Astar does was the Airborne Express flying that our scope covered. I have no problem allowing Astar to continue flying what they had prior to the ABF merger, ABF as an airline was flying a lot more freight priot to the merger that everyone is now, DHL and ex-ABF freight combined. Things keep going this way, there won't be enough freight for them to fly anyways...

That was exactly my point...not everybody can have everything they were entitled to under their respective contracts. ALPA has an obligation under their charter to represent the interests of their pilots, just as IBT does their own. In the end, no matter what happens in court, things probably won't change much. In the meantime, the lawyers have done their job.

It's prettty obvious that at some point, falling revenues will force DHL Int'l to enter into a "strategic alliance" with either UPS or FedEX that will make DHL's entire US operations...ahem..."redundant." At that point, the argument about "who flies what" will become moot, as DHL will no longer exist as a stand-alone company.

This ship is sinking. It doesn't matter whether she goes down by the bow or the stern, we're all gonna be treadin' water soon.

 

[Cargoav8or]

Yes, why don't you?

Following the sam logic as Dan, why don't we file a suit claiming breach of scope, because a lot of the flying Astar does was the Airborne Express flying that our scope covered. I have no problem allowing Astar to continue flying what they had prior to the ABF merger, ABF as an airline was flying a lot more freight priot to the merger that everyone is now, DHL and ex-ABF freight combined. Things keep going this way, there won't be enough freight for them to fly anyways...

 

[penguin22]

Yes, why don't you?

That's the whole point here, isn't it?

Of course there's scope in our contract, including successorship language. And when DHL, along with Astar, came along we too could have sent our lawyers out on a hail mary job grab attempt. Instead, we simply accepted the reality of the situation... DHL is coming, and they're bringing Astar.

And that's the point. ALPA, waving Fellows letter in their greedy little hand, chose to go for it all, at the expense of putting ABX out of business. Instead of accepting reality and partnering with the other pilot group involved, they tried to put them out of business.

A major blunder by ALPA, if you ask me. They haven't won a thing, most likely never will, but they sure alienated the very pilot group they will need the most support from.