If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[DC8CRIVER]

According to today's edition of the Wilmington News Journal, Astar is "prepared to present a proposal to DHL that would be competitive with the proposed UPS arrangement." Since DHL stated that one of the reasons for doing the deal with UPS what that DHL's costs in the US were too high and that doing the deal with UPS would lower DHL's cost, one must conclude that this new proposal by Astar must be concessionary.
Do any of you Astar guys have details on what it might be?

Brown,

There have been no talks, no negotiations, no hints, no nothing regarding concessions from Astar pilots. Rumor is that the ABX guys just turned down a 60+% paycut proposal from Hete.

Maybe Dasberg is prepared to take something less that the 7% profit that DHL pays him every year (actually, I guess, it's more like 3.5% since DHL bought 49% of us). That might be some cost cutting that would make a difference. Or how about getting some friggin planes that don't guzzle gas like a drunken sailor. That might be some cost cutting that would make a difference, too.

We just signed a contract that DHL was party to. They not only agreed to our pay scales, but they promised growth as well. Our pay rates aren't the problem.

DC8

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Seriously, thank you. I'm more optimistic than most of you here about how this new relationship with DHL will work out. UPS' control freak corporate culture is the best thing going for us.

Actually, BTB, it's the WORST thing going for you.

Look at it from managements side. They're locked into a sole-services-provider contract with a labor group that's already threatened to strike on several occasions. That group has also offered their support to the drivers whenever they've threatened to go on strike. Either way, they have the power to cripple the company unless they get what they want.

Where is the "control" in that?

Only by spreading the risk among many operators does UPS really gain total "control" over it's entire operation.

 

[DHL@nite]

Wait until that first 3rd party contractor shows up on the SDF ramp. UPS management will assure the UPS pilots by telling them, "Oh...don't worry about that..it is all just DHL freight." You guys will discover that it is impossible to tie DHL exclusively to your scope (just like we did - you can't tie scope to a 'customer'.). As the UPS/DHL partnership develops, the 2 companies will play the corporate shell game to undermine your scope. If you guys ever start to threaten a strike, the partnership will get very close, very fast. (Rest assured BOTH DHL and UPS are talking right now about how to protect BOTH of them in the event you guys strike - they are not about to put BOTH companies at the mercy of the IPA) Then you will be watching someone else fly "your" freight - and I can assure you, it is not fun.

Just my opinion of what will happen based on what happened to DHL Airways and Airborne. But I know...it could NEVER happen to you.

 

[DHL@nite]

I should also say that I really, truly do NOT want to see the above scenario happen - I do not have ill will towards the UPS pilots. Crap, UPS is about the only good place left to work. The pilot "profession" has really taken a beating, and we've all kinda let it happen to us. The pax airlines have really played the shell game using the regionals and have clobbered the pax side of the career option. Now I see the cargo companies headed down the same path.

 

[eatme]

Wait until that first 3rd party contractor shows up on the SDF ramp. UPS management will assure the UPS pilots by telling them, "Oh...don't worry about that..it is all just DHL freight." You guys will discover that it is impossible to tie DHL exclusively to your scope (just like we did - you can't tie scope to a 'customer'.). As the UPS/DHL partnership develops, the 2 companies will play the corporate shell game to undermine your scope. If you guys ever start to threaten a strike, the partnership will get very close, very fast. (Rest assured BOTH DHL and UPS are talking right now about how to protect BOTH of them in the event you guys strike - they are not about to put BOTH companies at the mercy of the IPA) Then you will be watching someone else fly "your" freight - and I can assure you, it is not fun.

Just my opinion of what will happen based on what happened to DHL Airways and Airborne. But I know...it could NEVER happen to you.

Why would UPS have spent multi-billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to get where they are now, only to fritter it away with crappy 3rd party contractors hauling and mixing their freight? If they wanted to do this wouldn't they have done so already?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

According to today's edition of the Wilmington News Journal, Astar is "prepared to present a proposal to DHL that would be competitive with the proposed UPS arrangement." Since DHL stated that one of the reasons for doing the deal with UPS what that DHL's costs in the US were too high and that doing the deal with UPS would lower DHL's cost, one must conclude that this new proposal by Astar must be concessionary.
Do any of you Astar guys have details on what it might be?

This is not about cost, and never has been. Rather, this is about forging a working arrangement with UPS which will allow them to use DHL, through their (DHL'S) contractors, to distribute their product in foreign markets.

It also opens the door to UPS using contractors to fly what would otherwise be UPS' freight in the event of a strike.

As you yourself pointed out in another post, the customers perception of "service" is created by person making the delivery. He is in essence, the only person who "touches" both the product and the customer. That's why UPS places such a premium on hiring the right people for that job, and pays them so well. The rest of us are, indeed, "peons."

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Why would UPS have spent multi-billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to get where they are now, only to fritter it away with crappy 3rd party contractors hauling and mixing their freight? If they wanted to do this wouldn't they have done so already?

Why would they spend billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to have it held hostage by Bob Miller and the IPA?

Not all contractors are "crappy" by any means. Northwest has been contracting to DHL for some time now, and they're certainly not "crappy." In contracting for anything, whether it's for somebody to hang drywall or a 747 to fly to ANK, you get what you pay for.

UPS will soon be flying DHL freight. Will that make you guys a "crappy 3rd party contractor" to DHL's core business?

 

[eatme]

Why would they spend billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to have it held hostage by Bob Miller and the IPA?

Not all contractors are "crappy" by any means. Northwest has been contracting to DHL for some time now, and they're certainly not "crappy." In contracting for anything, whether it's for somebody to hang drywall or a 747 to fly to ANK, you get what you pay for.

UPS will soon be flying DHL freight. Will that make you guys a "crappy 3rd party contractor" to DHL's core business?

When you say Northwest, you mean handfuls of obsolete 747s. Lets talk P/L of Northwest, yeah they have been in the $hitter for the last several years.
I don't believe UPS will be beholden to anyone, if things go sour with this yet to be signed DHL contract, there will be escape clauses that can be invoked by either side. Maybe UPS while doing due diligence on this deal will realize that its just a turd and walk away from it, who knows.

 

[Jetglow]

I want to point out that the 4 highest paid pilot groups in the world are UPS, Fed Ex, ABX & Astar.....

DHL & UPS just eliminated 2 of the 4.....

I am not pointing an angry finger at UPS pilots.....I am warning you guys to get tight contractual language to protect yourselves because you are next. I want you guys to prosper...none is this your fault...it is the greed of DHL. They have shot holes in every contract from half a world away. DHL is in your back yard now...and dont think for 1 minute that UPS would not like to lower thier costs by lowering your pay and strength by whatever means available.....


I am warning you with the truth....there is nothing better than that.

 

[shooter]

This is not about cost, and never has been. Rather, this is about forging a working arrangement with UPS which will allow them to use DHL, through their (DHL'S) contractors, to distribute their product in foreign markets.

It also opens the door to UPS using contractors to fly what would otherwise be UPS' freight in the event of a strike.

As you yourself pointed out in another post, the customers perception of "service" is created by person making the delivery. He is in essence, the only person who "touches" both the product and the customer. That's why UPS places such a premium on hiring the right people for that job, and pays them so well. The rest of us are, indeed, "peons."

UPS is a trucking company that has airplanes, where FedEx is an airline that has trucks. If they are plotting to prevent future labor problems, can they use the DHL/USPS trucks to deliver UPS goods?

 

[eatme]

UPS is a trucking company that has airplanes, where FedEx is an airline that has trucks. If they are plotting to prevent future labor problems, can they use the DHL/USPS trucks to deliver UPS goods?

DHL has trucks? I never seen one, except those grey ,non-descript Airborne home delivery econoline vans. I read that with the losses that the USPS is taking they are thinking of outsourcing all of their large semi-truck deliveries to FDX by the end of the year.

 

[shooter]

DHL has trucks? I never seen one, except those grey ,non-descript Airborne home delivery econoline vans. I read that with the losses that the USPS is taking they are thinking of outsourcing all of their large semi-truck deliveries to FDX by the end of the year.

DHL has a large ground network, and uses contractors to haul it. While that does expand on my question, I was actually referring to the bread trucks.

Does DHL have the right to deliver UPS boxes when they get "mixed up" since they are in the same sort?

 

[eatme]

DHL has a large ground network, and uses contractors to haul it. While that does expand on my question, I was actually referring to the bread trucks.

Does DHL have the right to deliver UPS boxes when they get "mixed up" since they are in the same sort?

So you are saying DHL trucks deliver UPS packages if need be, due to what? I don't forsee that happening ever.

 

[shooter]

So you are saying DHL trucks deliver UPS packages if need be, due to what? I don't forsee that happening ever.

Just like no one ever seen the last UPS strike happening, ever?

 

[eatme]

Just like no one ever seen the last UPS strike happening, ever?

Did UPS prepare to have FDX,DHL, et al, move their packages during that strike? No I didn't think so.

 

[shooter]

Did UPS prepare to have FDX,DHL, et al, move their packages during that strike? No I didn't think so.

It wasn't being sorted in the UPS sort last time.

 

[Browntothebone]

ATSG doesn't even have a certificate. Nice try.

You are correct that ATSG doesn't have a certificate. What Hete is going to do is get the ACMI with ANA changed from ABX Air to ATSG and get ATI and Capitol approved by the JCAB. That will give him the ability to use any of the three airlines to fly the ANA contract.

 

[Browntothebone]

Hey BTB. Got a question for you. Got a feeling you KNOW the answer

Is UPS a client of Ford & Harrison?

Don't know for a fact that they are, but most large corporations either use them are have their own union busting lawyers.

 

[Browntothebone]

This is not about cost, and never has been. Rather, this is about forging a working arrangement with UPS which will allow them to use DHL, through their (DHL'S) contractors, to distribute their product in foreign markets.

It also opens the door to UPS using contractors to fly what would otherwise be UPS' freight in the event of a strike.

As you yourself pointed out in another post, the customers perception of "service" is created by person making the delivery. He is in essence, the only person who "touches" both the product and the customer. That's why UPS places such a premium on hiring the right people for that job, and pays them so well. The rest of us are, indeed, "peons."

UPS could very well use a DHL contractor aircraft to fly it's volume in parts of the world where UPS currently uses airline belly space or common carriage. UPS will continue to fly what it does internationally and will continue to expand the airline internationally. I know that you can't stand to hear good news about another airline Dan, but it's the truth. UPS browntail jets flown around the world by IPA crews aren't going to go away no matter how hard you try and rationalize it.

 

[Browntothebone]

Why would they spend billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to have it held hostage by Bob Miller and the IPA?

Not all contractors are "crappy" by any means. Northwest has been contracting to DHL for some time now, and they're certainly not "crappy." In contracting for anything, whether it's for somebody to hang drywall or a 747 to fly to ANK, you get what you pay for.

UPS will soon be flying DHL freight. Will that make you guys a "crappy 3rd party contractor" to DHL's core business?

Probably the same reason that they spent billions in infrastructure so they can be held hostage by the Teamsters every few years.

 

[FreightBumper]

Penguin,

So what are you and 1224 doing on the Hill with your presence? Anything?

Our union has spoken loudly and clearly and often about this deal being a bad one. For all of us. Haven't heard anything at all from 1224.

Any statements coming?
Any press releases coming?
Any meetings with politicians coming?
Any grievances coming?
Any lawsuits coming?

Just wondering. Seems like they think this DHL/UPS deal is not worth fighting.

DC8

Since you are informed to the max, shouldn't you know APA1224 has been in capitol hill from the day the news broke. We don't need to march in front of non caring public or management. Hete nor Dasburg are going to fight for any pilot jobs. We have talked to more elected officials from both the senate and the house than you can know. We ARE doing something. We just aren't required to tell you about it.

 

[eatme]

Since you are informed to the max, shouldn't you know APA1224 has been in capitol hill from the day the news broke. We don't need to march in front of non caring public or management. Hete nor Dasburg are going to fight for any pilot jobs. We have talked to more elected officials from both the senate and the house than you can know. We ARE doing something. We just aren't required to tell you about it.

Good luck-no sarcasm intended

 

[penguin22]

You are correct that ATSG doesn't have a certificate. What Hete is going to do is get the ACMI with ANA changed from ABX Air to ATSG and get ATI and Capitol approved by the JCAB. That will give him the ability to use any of the three airlines to fly the ANA contract.

When the Japanese descend on the offices of ATI and Capital you be sure and let us know

 

[AV80R]

UPS could very well use a DHL contractor aircraft to fly it's volume in parts of the world where UPS currently uses airline belly space or common carriage. UPS will continue to fly what it does internationally and will continue to expand the airline internationally. I know that you can't stand to hear good news about another airline Dan, but it's the truth. UPS browntail jets flown around the world by IPA crews aren't going to go away no matter how hard you try and rationalize it.

BTTB- how do you know all that? I mean what makes you so sure we will keep flying our aircraft in the future? You say control? What if they could slash their operating costs by half or more, do you think they'd still care so much about 'control'?

I don't know all the answers but I think DHL deal is a bad deal for both UPS and DHL employees. DHL employees are getting screwed now; our turn will come later...

 

[Browntothebone]

BTTB- how do you know all that? I mean what makes you so sure we will keep flying our aircraft in the future? You say control? What if they could slash their operating costs by half or more, do you think they'd still care so much about 'control'?

I don't know all the answers but I think DHL deal is a bad deal for both UPS and DHL employees. DHL employees are getting screwed now; our turn will come later...

You had better quit now and get in front of all the other UPS pilots that will be out of work.

 

[174037]

Having not been on this forum in months and reading this thread I will take another couple of months off.

 

[eatme]

Having not been on this forum in months and reading this thread I will take another couple of months off.

Dude, Iron Eagle is on TV today

 

[FO 4 Life]

BTTB- how do you know all that? I mean what makes you so sure we will keep flying our aircraft in the future? You say control? What if they could slash their operating costs by half or more, do you think they'd still care so much about 'control'?

Why do you think UPS started an airline in 88 instead of continuing to use the contractors? It is about control not money. Think of the whipsaw they could have had with the 4 different carriers if they wanted to save money.

 

[brownie]

Why do you think UPS started an airline in 88 instead of continuing to use the contractors? It is about control not money. Think of the whipsaw they could have had with the 4 different carriers if they wanted to save money.

Actually the reason ups started thier own airline because they were under pressure from faa not because they wanted control. It was actually cheaper for them with contractors then ipa.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Why do you think UPS started an airline in 88 instead of continuing to use the contractors? It is about control not money. Think of the whipsaw they could have had with the 4 different carriers if they wanted to save money.

I don't think, I KNOW, why UPS started an airline in '88...they were FORCED to by the FAA. Ask any of your old hands what and who brought them out of the Evergreen, Interstate, Orion, Rosenbalm, et al doldrums and into the UPS fold. Thank T. Allen McArtor for your brown ID badge, not UPS' "need for control"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Allen_McArtor

In the early '80's, Flying Tigers biggest commercial account was UPS. At that time, there was little concern by UPS over "control" other than to make sure the planes left and arrived on time. Had they not, I'm sure UPS would have sought another contractor.