If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[DC8CRIVER]

According to today's edition of the Wilmington News Journal, Astar is "prepared to present a proposal to DHL that would be competitive with the proposed UPS arrangement." Since DHL stated that one of the reasons for doing the deal with UPS what that DHL's costs in the US were too high and that doing the deal with UPS would lower DHL's cost, one must conclude that this new proposal by Astar must be concessionary.
Do any of you Astar guys have details on what it might be?

Brown,

There have been no talks, no negotiations, no hints, no nothing regarding concessions from Astar pilots. Rumor is that the ABX guys just turned down a 60+% paycut proposal from Hete.

Maybe Dasberg is prepared to take something less that the 7% profit that DHL pays him every year (actually, I guess, it's more like 3.5% since DHL bought 49% of us). That might be some cost cutting that would make a difference. Or how about getting some friggin planes that don't guzzle gas like a drunken sailor. That might be some cost cutting that would make a difference, too.

We just signed a contract that DHL was party to. They not only agreed to our pay scales, but they promised growth as well. Our pay rates aren't the problem.

DC8

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Seriously, thank you. I'm more optimistic than most of you here about how this new relationship with DHL will work out. UPS' control freak corporate culture is the best thing going for us.

Actually, BTB, it's the WORST thing going for you.

Look at it from managements side. They're locked into a sole-services-provider contract with a labor group that's already threatened to strike on several occasions. That group has also offered their support to the drivers whenever they've threatened to go on strike. Either way, they have the power to cripple the company unless they get what they want.

Where is the "control" in that?

Only by spreading the risk among many operators does UPS really gain total "control" over it's entire operation.

 

[DHL@nite]

Wait until that first 3rd party contractor shows up on the SDF ramp. UPS management will assure the UPS pilots by telling them, "Oh...don't worry about that..it is all just DHL freight." You guys will discover that it is impossible to tie DHL exclusively to your scope (just like we did - you can't tie scope to a 'customer'.). As the UPS/DHL partnership develops, the 2 companies will play the corporate shell game to undermine your scope. If you guys ever start to threaten a strike, the partnership will get very close, very fast. (Rest assured BOTH DHL and UPS are talking right now about how to protect BOTH of them in the event you guys strike - they are not about to put BOTH companies at the mercy of the IPA) Then you will be watching someone else fly "your" freight - and I can assure you, it is not fun.

Just my opinion of what will happen based on what happened to DHL Airways and Airborne. But I know...it could NEVER happen to you.

 

[DHL@nite]

I should also say that I really, truly do NOT want to see the above scenario happen - I do not have ill will towards the UPS pilots. Crap, UPS is about the only good place left to work. The pilot "profession" has really taken a beating, and we've all kinda let it happen to us. The pax airlines have really played the shell game using the regionals and have clobbered the pax side of the career option. Now I see the cargo companies headed down the same path.

 

[eatme]

Wait until that first 3rd party contractor shows up on the SDF ramp. UPS management will assure the UPS pilots by telling them, "Oh...don't worry about that..it is all just DHL freight." You guys will discover that it is impossible to tie DHL exclusively to your scope (just like we did - you can't tie scope to a 'customer'.). As the UPS/DHL partnership develops, the 2 companies will play the corporate shell game to undermine your scope. If you guys ever start to threaten a strike, the partnership will get very close, very fast. (Rest assured BOTH DHL and UPS are talking right now about how to protect BOTH of them in the event you guys strike - they are not about to put BOTH companies at the mercy of the IPA) Then you will be watching someone else fly "your" freight - and I can assure you, it is not fun.

Just my opinion of what will happen based on what happened to DHL Airways and Airborne. But I know...it could NEVER happen to you.

Why would UPS have spent multi-billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to get where they are now, only to fritter it away with crappy 3rd party contractors hauling and mixing their freight? If they wanted to do this wouldn't they have done so already?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

According to today's edition of the Wilmington News Journal, Astar is "prepared to present a proposal to DHL that would be competitive with the proposed UPS arrangement." Since DHL stated that one of the reasons for doing the deal with UPS what that DHL's costs in the US were too high and that doing the deal with UPS would lower DHL's cost, one must conclude that this new proposal by Astar must be concessionary.
Do any of you Astar guys have details on what it might be?

This is not about cost, and never has been. Rather, this is about forging a working arrangement with UPS which will allow them to use DHL, through their (DHL'S) contractors, to distribute their product in foreign markets.

It also opens the door to UPS using contractors to fly what would otherwise be UPS' freight in the event of a strike.

As you yourself pointed out in another post, the customers perception of "service" is created by person making the delivery. He is in essence, the only person who "touches" both the product and the customer. That's why UPS places such a premium on hiring the right people for that job, and pays them so well. The rest of us are, indeed, "peons."

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Why would UPS have spent multi-billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to get where they are now, only to fritter it away with crappy 3rd party contractors hauling and mixing their freight? If they wanted to do this wouldn't they have done so already?

Why would they spend billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to have it held hostage by Bob Miller and the IPA?

Not all contractors are "crappy" by any means. Northwest has been contracting to DHL for some time now, and they're certainly not "crappy." In contracting for anything, whether it's for somebody to hang drywall or a 747 to fly to ANK, you get what you pay for.

UPS will soon be flying DHL freight. Will that make you guys a "crappy 3rd party contractor" to DHL's core business?

 

[eatme]

Why would they spend billions of dollars in aircraft and infrastructure to have it held hostage by Bob Miller and the IPA?

Not all contractors are "crappy" by any means. Northwest has been contracting to DHL for some time now, and they're certainly not "crappy." In contracting for anything, whether it's for somebody to hang drywall or a 747 to fly to ANK, you get what you pay for.

UPS will soon be flying DHL freight. Will that make you guys a "crappy 3rd party contractor" to DHL's core business?

When you say Northwest, you mean handfuls of obsolete 747s. Lets talk P/L of Northwest, yeah they have been in the $hitter for the last several years.
I don't believe UPS will be beholden to anyone, if things go sour with this yet to be signed DHL contract, there will be escape clauses that can be invoked by either side. Maybe UPS while doing due diligence on this deal will realize that its just a turd and walk away from it, who knows.

 

[Jetglow]

I want to point out that the 4 highest paid pilot groups in the world are UPS, Fed Ex, ABX & Astar.....

DHL & UPS just eliminated 2 of the 4.....

I am not pointing an angry finger at UPS pilots.....I am warning you guys to get tight contractual language to protect yourselves because you are next. I want you guys to prosper...none is this your fault...it is the greed of DHL. They have shot holes in every contract from half a world away. DHL is in your back yard now...and dont think for 1 minute that UPS would not like to lower thier costs by lowering your pay and strength by whatever means available.....


I am warning you with the truth....there is nothing better than that.

 

[shooter]

This is not about cost, and never has been. Rather, this is about forging a working arrangement with UPS which will allow them to use DHL, through their (DHL'S) contractors, to distribute their product in foreign markets.

It also opens the door to UPS using contractors to fly what would otherwise be UPS' freight in the event of a strike.

As you yourself pointed out in another post, the customers perception of "service" is created by person making the delivery. He is in essence, the only person who "touches" both the product and the customer. That's why UPS places such a premium on hiring the right people for that job, and pays them so well. The rest of us are, indeed, "peons."

UPS is a trucking company that has airplanes, where FedEx is an airline that has trucks. If they are plotting to prevent future labor problems, can they use the DHL/USPS trucks to deliver UPS goods?