If the tables were turned UPS/ASTAR(DHL Airways INC)

[flyinboxes]

Teamsters and 1224 have a bigger presence on the Hill over this issue than ALPA

You guys trip me out, so far I have seen absolutely NOTHING, that's right, ZIP from the 1224. The teamsters are selling you down the river...UPS is majority teamsters. Please tell me one thing, just one thing you have done in the face of adversity over the past few years to secure a contract, protect your jobs, etc. We have marched in Plantation on DHL's doorsteps while you plotted our demise. We marched in Wilmington while you plotted our demise. We marched in NY and DC. We stood together, we fought for a fair and equitable contract to secure our future and our flying. Now we are fighting for our jobs because we were deceived, fraudulently negotiated with. We will continue to fight until the end. We will watch as you take concessions in a futile attempt to save what's left of your airline, only to once again shake our heads and thank the 1224 for making the challenge impossible.

 

[flyinboxes]

According to today's edition of the Wilmington News Journal, Astar is "prepared to present a proposal to DHL that would be competitive with the proposed UPS arrangement." Since DHL stated that one of the reasons for doing the deal with UPS what that DHL's costs in the US were too high and that doing the deal with UPS would lower DHL's cost, one must conclude that this new proposal by Astar must be concessionary.
Do any of you Astar guys have details on what it might be?

Yes, we are going to fly it for 10 percent less than you make.

 

[FreightBumper]

You guys trip me out, so far I have seen absolutely NOTHING, that's right, ZIP from the 1224. The teamsters are selling you down the river...UPS is majority teamsters. Please tell me one thing, just one thing you have done in the face of adversity over the past few years to secure a contract, protect your jobs, etc. We have marched in Plantation on DHL's doorsteps while you plotted our demise. We marched in Wilmington while you plotted our demise. We marched in NY and DC. We stood together, we fought for a fair and equitable contract to secure our future and our flying. Now we are fighting for our jobs because we were deceived, fraudulently negotiated with. We will continue to fight until the end. We will watch as you take concessions in a futile attempt to save what's left of your airline, only to once again shake our heads and thank the 1224 for making the challenge impossible.

And what did Dasberg say? I knew nothing(aka sgt schultz: hogan's heroes.) August 09

 

[FreightBumper]

You guys trip me out, so far I have seen absolutely NOTHING, that's right, ZIP from the 1224. The teamsters are selling you down the river...UPS is majority teamsters. Please tell me one thing, just one thing you have done in the face of adversity over the past few years to secure a contract, protect your jobs, etc. We have marched in Plantation on DHL's doorsteps while you plotted our demise. We marched in Wilmington while you plotted our demise. We marched in NY and DC. We stood together, we fought for a fair and equitable contract to secure our future and our flying. Now we are fighting for our jobs because we were deceived, fraudulently negotiated with. We will continue to fight until the end. We will watch as you take concessions in a futile attempt to save what's left of your airline, only to once again shake our heads and thank the 1224 for making the challenge impossible.

We aren't four years into the fight for a contract as you were. We have some light at the end of the tunnel. I'll grant you it might be a freight train, but we are both acmi carriers and we realize it. You don't. Your lawsuit is your only recourse and I genuinely hope it works for you. We just feel we can't trust anything dhl says or does. You beat them in court and they will just declare bankruptcy and ups will own them anyway. Life after dhl isn't going to be at our or your present pay rates. Sincere best of luck to all Astar folks. I have never met one that wasn't a decent type. You and rotor and wing on this board are the exceptions. You have gloated for awhile about our apparent demise and now it's your turn.

 

[DHL@nite]

Freightbumper,

I don't know you, but you seem like a good guy. I think it was always thought by many that our two airlines would eventually be combined. I think it certainly would have been best long term.

Interesting how your scope with Airborne Express and our scope with DHL all managed to get derailed by airline management (DHL/DP). Management wins, pilots loose.

All pilots groups (including UPS) should look at our two pilot groups of examples as what very well could happen to them. Although I'm sure most groups assume their Scope is invincible.

Maybe someday, pilot groups will actually support each other on these issues - we obviously can't rely on scope clauses, lawyers, or airline management.

Best of luck to all ABX and Astar pilots. Neither group deserved this.

 

[Browntothebone]

Freightbumper,

I don't know you, but you seem like a good guy. I think it was always thought by many that our two airlines would eventually be combined. I think it certainly would have been best long term.

Interesting how your scope with Airborne Express and our scope with DHL all managed to get derailed by airline management (DHL/DP). Management wins, pilots loose.

All pilots groups (including UPS) should look at our two pilot groups of examples as what very well could happen to them. Although I'm sure most groups assume their Scope is invincible.

Maybe someday, pilot groups will actually support each other on these issues - we obviously can't rely on scope clauses, lawyers, or airline management.

Best of luck to all ABX and Astar pilots. Neither group deserved this.

What would you like for the UPS pilot group to do about it? Refuse to fly any domestic flight after the deal is signed because it might have DHL volume on board? Seriously, what do you expect US to do?

 

[DHL@nite]

I don't know. What would you expect us to do if UPS approached Astar about carrying UPS freight? (provided they found a loophole in your scope)

In all honesty, it would probably be best if the union leaderships were to sit down and decide what type of "support" would/could be offered and what would be most realistic/beneficial. Ultimately, we (pilots) are all in this together.

Remember, even though our previous contract scope clause language got gutted by DHL's spin-off of the airline (we should have protected ourselves better then) - even our CURRENT agreement (being 49% owned by DHL) has job security and growth provisions (that were agreed to by DHL as well as Astar) that will be violated by this deal.

Webboard talk probably wouldn't do anything but cause posturing, head butting, and the like - all to the benefit and delight of UPS and DHL management.

 

[AV8OR]

What would you like for the UPS pilot group to do about it? Refuse to fly any domestic flight after the deal is signed because it might have DHL volume on board? Seriously, what do you expect US to do?

BTB,

I can't speak for others on the issue, but as for me, I really don't expect yall to be able to do much of anything. I guess some guys think yall shouldn't fly the freight, but since it's not struck work, I'm not sure that really works. Personally, since apparently there's no real love from UPS management in listening to UPS pilots helping a brotha' out, who's out of work due to pretty much ANY deal with UPS, I really don't think there's much of anything that yall can do. So, I in know way blame the pilots of UPS.

So, for the record, as for me, the fight continues against two entities....DHL/DPWN and UPS, via litigation and info campaigning. At the same time is my app ready for the window to open? You bet. Am I hangin my hat on any of this. Absolutely not. But encouraging me to simply update my resume and send out apps (like that's some sort of new concept) instead of, rather in addition to, fighting this thing legally....well it's just a tad insulting for those of us over here.

I fully expect one night to show up at Building 11 with Hans Hickler and Appel manning the door, where they will say, "Good news boys! We've finally worked it out with UPS for yall to go fly for them. Now if you will simply disrobe out of that AStar uniform, turn in your ID's, and proceed through the shower area, on the other side of that door you will find your new Brown uniform and UPS badge! Not to worry!" And all will be well.....till the cyanide cannisters begin to drop.

 

[DHL@nite]

I guess some guys think yall shouldn't fly the freight, but since it's not struck work, I'm not sure that really works.

AV8OR,

Cessation of service (or the threat to) is only one type of support. There are other types of support that could be of more benefit to us at this time - but probably shouldn't be discussed on a public board.

I really do think we would offer our full support to UPS pilots if/when the tables are turned. I'm not "blaming" anyone for anything (other than DP) and I'm not painting the UPS pilots as "bad guys" or anything - just seeking support.

I do think refraining from calling DHL pilots "just contractors" would be the classy thing to do, however.

I've got friends at UPS, ABX, and Astar. Crap, I've got friends at UPS that used to be at Astar. Nobody wants to see anyone out of work. But that is where some cooperation and throwing up some potential "hurdles" could be of benefit.

But, yes, get your resume ready. Because in this case, David is very small, Goliath is very large, and there doesn't seem to be very many stones around.

 

[coho92]

I don't know. What would you expect us to do if UPS approached Astar about carrying UPS freight? (provided they found a loophole in your scope)

In all honesty, it would probably be best if the union leaderships were to sit down and decide what type of "support" would/could be offered and what would be most realistic/beneficial. Ultimately, we (pilots) are all in this together.

Remember, even though our previous contract scope clause language got gutted by DHL's spin-off of the airline (we should have protected ourselves better then) - even our CURRENT agreement (being 49% owned by DHL) has job security and growth provisions (that were agreed to by DHL as well as Astar) that will be violated by this deal.

Webboard talk probably wouldn't do anything but cause posturing, head butting, and the like - all to the benefit and delight of UPS and DHL management.

we already have it, its called star, mng, whatever river express, etc. The smart guys I know have left this industry because the next job killer will be the new 767 unmanned freighter