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If Delta had asked this, woudl the pilot have accepted?

  • Thread starter Thread starter B777
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B777

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Posts
48
One thing that reaffirms my belief that Delta management have no clue, and they had all this coming to them is the Decision to merge Song back into Delta. I think Song is a great product! It blows Jetblue out of the water! The product that is and not necessarily how it is run. When you get on a song flight, you notice the difference right away. Hip colors, both on the outside and the inside (not necessarily a fan of the colours but they do stand out), they are playing music as you board, sometimes cool songs that I like, they do their flight attendant announcement with various songs and best of all, they have games on board that I can play against other passengers! They have Texas Hold um poker, tirivia, etc. Ok, if you are not into games, they have Sattelite TV for you, if you are not into TV they have thousands of songs you can choose from to listen to, and if you are not even into that, you can watch a movie for $8 (cheaper than some theaters I have been to!). In addition to the entertainment they have good food. You have different sandwiches and salads to choose from, and various snack which definetly beats Jetblue's terrablue chips, biscoti and all the other snacks that Jeblue offers. And they also have friendly flight attendants. When I book a song flight, I actually look forward to it! I have a laptop with games, but I have never used it on a Song flight! The product itself rocks! I am not sure I agree with how it was run, and maybe because I do not have the whole picture.

One thing that I did not understand is that they had Song flight attendants operating the flight but Delta pilots flying the airplanes, Delta agents handling the flight, both above and below wing. Now if you really want to compete against Jeblue, then you have to aslo compete against their operation cost. Which brings me to the question of this thread. My question is to all the Delta pilot on this forum. If Delta came right after Sept 11 and said: Look, we have to comepte against Jetblue and the only way we can do it is by starting a new company. However, we can not have Delta pilots flying the planes at Delta pilot rates. Delta pilots can bid into a seat at Song if they choose to, but it would have to be at 1st year pay based on your seat and the rates are excatly what Jeblue is paying their pilots. It would not make sense for senior pilots bidding into those seats, but perhaps those junior pilots?

If you are a Delta pilot, would you have accepted that proposal 2 years ago. Would it have made a difference? I say that because operationally, I am not sure how efficient is the 757 compared to the A320.
 
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After 9/11, JB probably had less than 20 planes, while Delta had more than 500. If Delta would have told the pilots they need major changes to compete with this tiny upstart, I'm guessing the pilots would have told them to go play in the traffic.

I agree Song was great. But why give your best product to your cheapest customers? I think Song probably diluted the Delta brand more than develop it's own, but that's just a guess.
 
B777 said:
One thing that reaffirms my belief that Delta management have no clue, and they had all this coming to them is the Decision to merge Song back into Delta. I think Song is a great product! It blows Jetblue out of the water! The product that is and not necessarily how it is run. When you get on a song flight, you notice the difference right away. Hip colors, both on the outside and the inside (not necessarily a fan of the colours but they do stand out), they are playing music as you board, sometimes cool songs that I like, they do their flight attendant announcement with various songs and best of all, they have games on board that I can play against other passengers! They have Texas Hold um poker, tirivia, etc. Ok, if you are not into games, they have Sattelite TV for you, if you are not into TV they have thousands of songs you can choose from to listen to, and if you are not even into that, you can watch a movie for $8 (cheaper than some theaters I have been to!). In addition to the entertainment they have good food. You have different sandwiches and salads to choose from, and various snack which definetly beats Jetblue's terrablue chips, biscoti and all the other snacks that Jeblue offers. And they also have friendly flight attendants. When I book a song flight, I actually look forward to it! I have a laptop with games, but I have never used it on a Song flight! The product itself rocks! I am not sure I agree with how it was run, and maybe because I do not have the whole picture.

One thing that I did not understand is that they had Song flight attendants operating the flight but Delta pilots flying the airplanes, Delta agents handling the flight, both above and below wing. Now if you really want to compete against Jeblue, then you have to aslo compete against their operation cost. Which brings me to the question of this thread. My question is to all the Delta pilot on this forum. If Delta came right after Sept 11 and said: Look, we have to comepte against Jetblue and the only way we can do it is by starting a new company. However, we can not have Delta pilots flying the planes at Delta pilot rates. Delta pilots can bid into a seat at Song if they choose to, but it would have to be at 1st year pay based on your seat and the rates are excatly what Jeblue is paying their pilots. It would not make sense for senior pilots bidding into those seats, but perhaps those junior pilots?

If you are a Delta pilot, would you have accepted that proposal 2 years ago. Would it have made a difference? I say that because operationally, I am not sure how efficient is the 757 compared to the A320.

You left off one major important detail - Song was not, and could never be profitable.
 
No it is the other way around Song is absorbing DAL, and changing its name to Delta Airlines
 
Song is/was a good product, the problem is that it was about as origional and as succeful as "NEW COKE" (Remember in the mid 80'S?).

:puke:
:uzi:
 
Smoking Man said:
Song is/was a good product, the problem is that it was about as origional and as succeful as "NEW COKE" (Remember in the mid 80'S?).

:puke:
:uzi:

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]Hot Flash[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida] - October 31, 2005[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]Song Changes Tune
[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]But It's Still Singing[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]And the winner is: Sherwin Williams.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]Other than oil companies, it's paint suppliers that are cleaning up in the airline industry. [/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]There's TED, where United seems to believe that changing a color scheme will bring mystical results to what is essentially the same system as before. Now, Delta's decision to end the separate Song brand means another uptick in demand for airplane coatings.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]And that's about all it means.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]It's amazing to read comments from some "financial advisors" regarding this decision by
text1031a.JPG
Delta. These guys come out with grand statements describing the "failure" of Song, and how it's being "shut down."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]All of this is without any review or analysis of what's actually being done. And these are the people who want you to entrust your money with them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]Essentially, all Delta's doing is re-branding Song as mainline Delta. In most cases, the aircraft will be flying the same routes, with fares unchanged. When they dreamed up this scheme, Delta had the option back then of leaving it within the Delta identity, or trying to create a separate brand. They chose the latter. Now, they're just re-painting the aircraft back to DL colors, making the configurations compatible with the rest of the airline, and continuing doing what they've been doing.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]The concept, whether it's called Song or Delta, remains in place, and remains a valid marketing approach. Unlike TED, which carries the same passengers within the same hub system as planes with a regular United paint job, Delta's objective was to isolate low-yield traffic flows, particularly to Florida, and carry them outside of their core hub system on a nonstop basis. They made the additional decision to gussy up the product to win consumer loyalty. Based on reported load factors, and anecdotal reports, it seemed to work.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]The downside was that as a separate sub-brand, it brought with it some operational issues. Apparently, Delta has decided it can keep the passengers and cut overall costs by doing away with the separate Song brand identity. And that's pretty much the sum total of what they're doing. It's not a retreat from jetBlue. It's not a "shut down" of an airline.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdan, Lucida]It's another paint job, mostly.[/FONT]​
 
Maybe Song and the rest of the airlines wouuld be a profitable or close to profitable if JB would charge a little more for ticket prices. Then again if you pay shiit wages you don't have to.:puke: The pay rate for the 190 is disgraceful!
 
Kick ass inflight entertainment, first class, AND a solid frequent flyer program? It could be enough to get me on Delta. I'm actually not very clued in to everything that is Song, as there were some weaknesses in the frequent flyer program amongst the SkyTeam partners. The short of it is no FF miles for flying on song for partner carriers. Those that place value on that avoid song like the plague.
 
That rate is disgraceful and now it is the standard rate for 100 seaters for the legacies that are looking at operating them also. I believe those rates are what NW and Delta are trying to force feed their respective pilot groups and they are what USAirways accepted for E-190s. Wow we are racing backwards awful fast.
 
Well, why don't these JB pilots get a union on property and raise their wages. Any union. Oh, that's right. They have a 4 or 5 year contract and the company would just get rid of them. So much for a profession.
 
TOO many what ifs.

After 9/11 Delta had Delta Express for the NY-FL leisure market (50 737-200s). Delta pilots were paid much less to fly on express, while gate agents, and FA's made the same as mainline rates. It was questionable if it would have held up against JB, we will never know.

With almost certainty I would say the pilot force would not have agreed to anymore seperate payrates at the time. Don't forget that after 9/11 Delta wasn't look that bad financially, and no one (except possibly the lazy DAL mgt, no on 2nd thought they have no visionary capabilities) expected it to be this bad 4 years later.
 
B777 said:
If Delta came right after Sept 11 and said: Look, we have to comepte against Jetblue and the only way we can do it is by starting a new company. However, we can not have Delta pilots flying the planes at Delta pilot rates.

Delta already proved that an 'airline within an airline' with completely different (LOWER) pay scales doesn't work.

Remember Delta Express?

Try again, it 'aint about the pilot salaries!
 
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Song is a great product. If I had to sit in coach I would choose song over any airline. Especially on the longer flights.

And no B6Driver this isn't a "plug" for Song. I don't work for Delta and I'm not furloughed from Delta. I just prefer them if I have to fly as a pax. (in coach) but don't worry, I still like JetBlue. (just not as much as Song) :D
 
kassel737 said:
Well, why don't these JB pilots get a union on property and raise their wages. Any union. Oh, that's right. They have a 4 or 5 year contract and the company would just get rid of them. So much for a profession.


That's quite an impressive contribution to the board...all two posts. You sure told us!
 
kassel737 said:
Well, why don't these JB pilots get a union on property and raise their wages. Any union. Oh, that's right. They have a 4 or 5 year contract and the company would just get rid of them. So much for a profession.

maybe we should get ALPA to represent us so they can show us how to BEND OVER................

its funny how you like to dump on us regarding the 190 rates but forget to mention the A-320 rates renegotiated by ALPA at USAIR, UNITED. its weird how a non union pilot group makes more than an ALPA pilot group flying A-320's......................OUCH!!
 
Please.

kassel737 said:
Well, why don't these JB pilots get a union on property and raise their wages. Any union. Oh, that's right. They have a 4 or 5 year contract and the company would just get rid of them. So much for a profession.

Well, All you know-it-all's can't have it both ways.
You have the all powerful ALPO on the property at your place of business so just have them put their almighty foot down and demand a rate that you see as proper and appropriate. Oh right, ALPO is a sham and carries no weight any more in this world.
JetBlue is not getting rid of anybody and recently renewed all the existing contracts for another 5 years and changed them to "evergreen" contracts that will automatically renew at the end of their term.
If you knew some of the details of the JB pilot contract, you would wonder why ALPO never asked to negotiate similar benefits for its members; go figure. Can you still justify the 1.95% shake down of your salaries while Ex-Capt. Woerth changed the by-laws and no longer has to share the pain in salary reductions as his members?
 
I finally made two post because I couldn't take it anymore. Are you telling me that the wages JB pays is not a detriment to our profession. 5 year contract? I could give a crap what union just do something to bring up those sorry wages.
 
jbucpt said:
maybe we should get ALPA to represent us so they can show us how to BEND OVER................

its funny how you like to dump on us regarding the 190 rates but forget to mention the A-320 rates renegotiated by ALPA at USAIR, UNITED. its weird how a non union pilot group makes more than an ALPA pilot group flying A-320's......................OUCH!!

Don't ever let Dwayne Worthless hear that. OOOOOHHHHHH Mamma........
 

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