Ideal AWA/USAir Seniority Integration

[AAslag]

Yes that is all you can say about OZ/TWA, there seems to be enough information from the OZ guys why DOH for them was not good, and if it had been that great for the OZ guys, do you think TWA would have left it the same way.

AA

No, I can say a lot about the 86' merger. What do you want to know?
Since you have inside information, please..... explain to me how horrible it was for them.

Yes, there were fences. A few lost CA seats. A few had to fly as FE.
They eventually dominated the training center and the check airman ranks. Two became chief pilots, several more assistant chief pilots. They flew in every seat of every aircraft that TWA had.

The last 747 flight was commanded by an OZ pilot.

They all kept their jobs, and today everyone left is able to fly CA on the small widebodies or the MD-80.

I have established many friendships with OZ pilots, however, a small minority continues to spread disinformation and lies.

I was informed by a sim instructor (former OZ) how lucky I was that I didnt get stapled like he did. I suppose he expected some kind of super-seniority. His 79' hire status should have somehow propelled him past the pilots hired in the 60's. He is certainly senior to the TWA pilots hired in 85, 86, 88 and beyond. I wish I had been stapled like he was.

So please tell me AA..... what am I missing? Tell me about the lost live and hardships.

Your last statement is baffling. Please explain.

 

[AAflyer]

Not sure what is baffling about it, but yes I have heard both sides, and will put out some information I have when I have the authors permission. I am sure with what is going on with the AUP, and C & R, you can understand my reluctance to repost anything at this time.

But for starters, regardless of DOH seniority, 16% of the OZ pilots were furloughed just prior to the TW/OZ merger date ( Against ALL ALPA "Scope Rules, including TWA's..) TWA with 3 weeks notice removed the Ozark MD80's from the OZ ops cert and transferred them to the TWA ops cert. creating an overage of the OZ CA/FO's and thus OZ furloughs.

As for the other comment, it is truly amazing how there is ALWAYS a different feeling as to what is fair and not fair. You haven't figured that out yet.

AA

 

[AAslag]

As for the other comment, it is truly amazing how there is ALWAYS a different feeling as to what is fair and not fair. You haven't figured that out yet.

Where in my post do I mention anything about fair or unfair? Everything I wrote is simply a statement of fact.

Look AA, I don't want your job, have no personal animosity towards you, and I never expected to fly the 777. I know that without the 9/11 attacks I would most likely still be flying Captain in St. Louis and I have already been furloughed longer than any of the 16% you mentioned.

I was hired in 88. I had nothing to do with the merger. I am not defending TWA or condeming OZ. I simply do not understand how such a small minority can continue to garner so much underserved sympathy.

If you are going to re-post a buch of Numbers Bob crap save your time.
He is self serving and has no credibility.

 

[AAflyer]

I am sorry for your furlough. I did not mean to sound "all knowing", just from what I have read and heard.

I can't say if it wouldn't have been fair if you could have flown the 777, not really sure as to what would have been best, but you did deserve a lot better, and while I usually get looks from my collegues you guys should have been treated a lot better.

I have flown recently with some guys that are now getting bumped to FO, and I know others that are now unemployed.

I guess what I meant to say was every person has a different feeling as to fair and equitable and to see the pilots at US/AWA already making comments as to what they feel they deserve makes me worried there will be another bunch harmed pilots.

We are truly all pawns in the game, and many like yourself and I had no ability to alter the events that happened. I would like to say that all TWA pilots I have flown with have been nothing but quality people, and pilots.

AA

 

[Swaayze]

Goody! I might be considered for a preferential interview at the airline I worked for and have recall rights to still. You guys are very generous. And I'm sure the '88 hires that are furloughed will be very appreciative of this too - given that some of you are AWA pilots who began primary flight training after their DOH at the "surviving" company (another thread for those who want to beat this horse).

And you guys wonder why GoJets finds qualified pilots!


Don't worry, no U furloughee will bump an AWA pilot to the street. We'll all be (at best) on the bottom of the list. I have no doubt about this.


Godspeed to all involved.

 

[NAA Pilot]

Not sure what is baffling about it, but yes I have heard both sides, and will put out some information I have when I have the authors permission. I am sure with what is going on with the AUP, and C & R, you can understand my reluctance to repost anything at this time.

But for starters, regardless of DOH seniority, 16% of the OZ pilots were furloughed just prior to the TW/OZ merger date ( Against ALL ALPA "Scope Rules, including TWA's..) TWA with 3 weeks notice removed the Ozark MD80's from the OZ ops cert and transferred them to the TWA ops cert. creating an overage of the OZ CA/FO's and thus OZ furloughs.

As for the other comment, it is truly amazing how there is ALWAYS a different feeling as to what is fair and not fair. You haven't figured that out yet.

AA

Don't bother with Herbst rantings. His is not a liked or respected man. TWA, OZ and, AA pilot alike can't stand the man or his self righteous, pompous, diatribes.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm seeing the expression "career expectations" (CE) being thrown around and it troubles me because it's purely subjective. CE is nothing but a verbal weapon used to justify a windfall. Only an informed person not involved, ie, an arbitrator, can possibly render objective opinions. Just MHO.

 

[TWA Dude]

Don't bother with Herbst rantings. His is not a liked or respected man. TWA, OZ and, AA pilot alike can't stand the man or his self righteous, pompous, diatribes.

Jiminy cricket! Can y'all stop with the personal named attacks. I've actually flown with him and I happen to disagree with your insults.

 

[NAA Pilot]

Jiminy cricket! Can y'all stop with the personal named attacks. I've actually flown with him and I happen to disagree with your insults.

Adam:

I have flown with him too. He is an ASS.

 

[erjdude]

Goody! I might be considered for a preferential interview at the airline I worked for and have recall rights to still. You guys are very generous. And I'm sure the '88 hires that are furloughed will be very appreciative of this too - given that some of you are AWA pilots who began primary flight training after their DOH at the "surviving" company (another thread for those who want to beat this horse).

And you guys wonder why GoJets finds qualified pilots!


Don't worry, no U furloughee will bump an AWA pilot to the street. We'll all be (at best) on the bottom of the list. I have no doubt about this.


Godspeed to all involved.

Know doubt this is a raw deal for all furloughed u pilots. But answere this. If u had remained a stand alone airline and you were to be recalled what kind of seniority would you have? im guesing you would be at the bottom. So what exactly changed?

 

[aa73]

I don't get it. Do you mean ALPA National? Or are you refering to the Ozark/TWA merger that resulted in date of hire?

I mean ALPA National, who did nothing to fight the APA and basically left the TWA pilots out to dry.

Like AAflyer, I also believe that the TWA guys deserved better. Now, when you get the two or three guys on here that hurl personal attacks demanding why they didn't get DOH, or where their "checks" are (what checks?), we're just dealing with the 1 or 2% of freaks that exist at every airline. Overall, however, I would have liked to have seen protected seniority for TWA pilots at every base that TWA had, not just STL. In other words, a mini Supp CC in NY, BOS, and LAX whereby the TWA pilots would have held their bid statuses in each of those domiciles. This, I think, would have protected their career expectations quite a bit more while not really affecting ours (a lot of retirements.)

As far as why there was a staple, and where they drew that line, don't ask. I have no clue, and I wouldn't have wanted to be the one responsible for that. A 1:8 all the way down would have been reasonable, IMO.

The deal that was crafted was not the only one. There was an earlier proposal that benefitted a lot more TWA pilots, in that roughly 700 guys would get stapled, and the remaining 1600 or so would get the 1:8 integration. (Right now we have about 1200 stapled and 1000 or so integrated at 1:8, starting around AA seniority #2300.)

For some reason, the TWA MEC chairman refused to consider the first offer, wouldn't even negotiate at all, and basically walked out of the room. From that point on the precedent was set, and you had both sides just getting real ugly with each other.

The final deal benefitted a lot of guys on both sides, and screwed a lot of guys on both sides. 9/11 pretty much ensured it was the TWA pilots who took the brunt of the screwing. Had that not happened, I think you would have seen a lot less animosity.

In any case, any kind of merger will create the kind of resentment we see here. Guys like AAflyer and myself can see both sides, whereas the majority of AA pilots will tell you that "they got what they deserved" and most TWA pilots will tell you "we got screwed." I have many friends at both airlines, and it just plain sucks to see my buds on the street.

The AWA/US deal will hopefully involve a lot more respect and professionalism. But you can already start seeing the animosity pick up just on this board. Unfortunately, that's what mergers do.

Regards,
73

 

[TWA Dude]

For some reason, the TWA MEC chairman refused to consider the first offer, wouldn't even negotiate at all, and basically walked out of the room.

You tote the APA version very well. In fact, he had no authority to negotiate. His version of events was that he was only a messenger boy sent to pick up a proposal. A power struggle within our MEC resulted in botched communications all around. Frankly I can't say I'm proud of the behavior of any of the involved parties.

 

[aa73]

You tote the APA version very well. In fact, he had no authority to negotiate. His version of events was that he was only a messenger boy sent to pick up a proposal. A power struggle within our MEC resulted in botched communications all around. Frankly I can't say I'm proud of the behavior of any of the involved parties.

I didn't know it was "the APA version"... I am just quoting what was told to me by many different parties, including several TWA captains up in STL.

Hopefully your MEC guys at AWA/US will do you some proud... Good luck.

73

 

[Swaayze]

Know doubt this is a raw deal for all furloughed u pilots. But answere this. If u had remained a stand alone airline and you were to be recalled what kind of seniority would you have? im guesing you would be at the bottom. So what exactly changed?

Nothing, but I wouldn't have had to (maybe "get to") re-interview if they decided I was worthy of preferential treatment. Like I said, I'm sure we'll be at the bottom, probably even below the AWA pilots still to be hired after the announcement and before the integration. Meanwhile, U parks most of the airplanes and sheds pieces due to bankruptcy status so no recalls while AWA (most likely) hires off the street.

Personally I'm not really sure I give a hoot anyway. Might not even go back if it's offered to me, but there's a few years before that's an issue I guess.

 

[C77MD80]

Adam:

I have flown with him too. He is an ASS.

I've never met the guy and he is an ASS!

 

[C77MD80]

nO.

The deal that was crafted was not the only one. There was an earlier proposal that benefitted a lot more TWA pilots, in that roughly 700 guys would get stapled, and the remaining 1600 or so would get the 1:8 integration. (Right now we have about 1200 stapled and 1000 or so integrated at 1:8, starting around AA seniority #2300.)

"they got what they deserved" and most TWA pilots will tell you "

The AWA/US deal will hopefully involve a lot more respect and professionalism. But you can already start seeing the animosity pick up just on this board. Unfortunately, that's what mergers do.

Regards,
73

How were they feathered? From the top or bottom? Makes a huge difference.

"They got what they deserved." You mean the TWA pilots not the OZ pilots. Let's see.. that transpired in what, 1986? Those TWA pilots that were here and "srewed" the OZ pilots were all senior to the OZ pilots. Most of which are are either protected or retired. The TWA pilots hired in 88 and beyond ar e the ones impacted and they weren't even on the property for the OZ/TWA merger.

Let's hope the US/AW deal will have more respect. Let's hope to that nobody gets the CE shaft.

 

[Doug Parker]

How come that stupid AA/TWA merger pi$$ing contest becomes the main subject of all of the AWA/AAA merger posts ????

 

[UALjan15]

How come that stupid AA/TWA merger pi$$ing contest becomes the main subject of all of the AWA/AAA merger posts ????

The reason why is because there are so many raw nerves exposed, and with so many dudes on the street, there just can't be any healing yet. I hope everyone involved is taking a good hard look at this poisonous atmosphere and resolving to do it better this time.

I'm about 50 from the bottom of the Cactus list, so I certainly have a dog in this fight. As I talk to other AWA pilots, I notice a sense of fairness prevailing. I wish I could say the same for my MEC, who at first glance appear to be in the mode of "protecting the careers of every AWA pilot." Before you say "that's what they're supposed to do," save it! If I have to come to work for the next 20 years in a bitter environment like AA, then my interests have not been protected. I would gladly take a hit in seniority in exchange for a friendly work environment. In other words, if a U guy is going to buy me a beer, I'd rather have him hand it to me than throw it at me.

With that said, there is a lot of work to be done, and I hope it can be done out of the courts (dreaming, I know). A few random thoughts.....

• According to our leadership, this deal makes sense at about 360 aircraft, down from 419 total AWA + US today. As much as it sucks, if there are jobs to be lost due to this downsizing, they should come from the carrier that is losing the planes. That said, both airlines should cooperate to minimize furloughs due to the deal.
• There ARE growth plans and retirements that will generate the need for more pilots. I don't care what the LOA says, I would like to see U guys offered recalls as vacancies open.
• I've got about 97% of the AWA list senior to me. I don't expect to be any higher than 97% of the combined list.
• Forced moves are one element of an integration that will surely ruffle feathers. For pilots already on either property, logical fences that will avoid forced displacements would be a good thing.
• Career expectations are only good for the week you're in. I expected to be making $140/hr as a 757 FO by now, but I'm getting by on about a quarter of that. Granted, we are doing better than U right now, which I would use like a "tiebreaker," not an excuse to break out the stapler.
• They like to say that if when the integration is complete, if everyone is pi$$ed off, then it was probably fair. This may be close to the truth, but who wants to go to work where everyone's bitter? This is why I prefer growth from within.

 

[seefive]

The merger should be done according to career expectations without the merger. USAir has none. They are in bankruptcy and would fold without this merger or another. That sucks but it's true imo. AWA, while not setting the world on fire is doing okay. The USAir furloughees would never get back to their company although I do believe if the new company hires pilots, it should be the USAir furloughees. My two cents.........probably not worth much to most as I have nothing on the line in this immediate fight.

 

[MCDU]

UALjan15, very well written post. Agree 100%. As, we all know, we are our own worst enemies. Just like when Jet for Jobs was announced at AA and then the regionals started screaming about how they would be screwed. Did not happen.

It the long run. AWA pilots will have lots to gain. 3200 active AA pilots against 1850 pilots AWA. With so many retirements at AA, there will be plenty of room to grow. Average age 54, think about 54. That would mean all guys on furlough would be back and they would be very senior in about 12 years at AA.
Like you said, that if you are 80 % on the list, you should be 80% on the combined list. Just because you are on furlough, does not mean you are not on the seniority list anymore. No Furloughs on the AWA side due to some kind of fencing even though you might have some AA guys still on furlough who might be senior on the combined list. Plus, what was CAL like and AWA during their trips to bankruptcy. Everybody wrote them off. United was the airline. We had guys in class from AWA thinking they were not going to make it through bankruptcy. It is dumb to say that AA would fold with out this merger.They would just find another way.

Regards,
Marty