IBT 1108 Attempts to take NJASAP funds

[Grizz]

How is that looking out for their own membership?

Stealing funds so that it won't be lent out and paid back in 12 months. I do not see what is gained for the Flops membership.

I guess thats why I am a pilot and not a banker.

Gun,

Once they had that money, the Teamsters easily could have reneged on the rest of the agreement. At that point, our only recourse would have been to pursue the full NMB disaffiliation route. That would have taken another 120 days or so. 120 days more of dues revenue they could take from us at ~$400,000 a month.

Make sense now?

 

[gunfyter]

For the Teamsters... it does ... not for the FLOPS guys.


Why would they want to screw us after we helped to set them up? After I donated money for the 68 fired....

 

[Grizz]

That's the question we didn't understand either Gun. I'm not sure why they would blindly follow the thug Bill Moore. Maybe he promised them more money as an end result of all this.

What's really sad about this is that had they told us what the Teamsters were planning, we would have had their backs forever. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Oh, the tangled web the NJASAP leadership spins....



There was NO monies stolen. Period. All that happened was a matter of PROTOCOL. All that occurred was that all the bank accounts that were part of the 1108 had the signature cards with the old net jets leadership pilots' names removed and the new 1108 leadership's names - Flight Options pilots -added. Period.

What is interesting to note is that there was indeed "hidden" accounts found by the Flight Options leadership, including one account with a half a million dollars in it, and there is evidence that IBT 1108 funds were being used to fund NJASAP organizing activities including airline fares, etc. and funded with IBT 1108 monies. THAT would be illegal.

What's really happened is that the NJASAP pilots lost access to all of the 1108 funds before they could do any "maneuvering" of any such funds and it pissed them off that they couldn't do anything about it.

There is a matter of a $377,000 LOAN from the IBT 1108 to the NJASAP pilot leadership that was to cover the dues payments from Net Jets, that would be paid back in 12 months to the IBT 1108, and that can and will be available according to the agreement. That is the ONLY money that could be considered belonging to the NJASAP group, but it doesn't really, as it's only a LOAN, and that will still be allowed to happen, under the CONTROL of the 1108 new leadership. When the proper documentation is handled, I'm sure the money will be made available.

The bottom line is this: NOTHING was stolen. Not a dime. ALL such monies belong to the IBT 1108. Net Jets pilots are no longer part of the 1108. They no longer have any rights to any bank accounts. The only thing that was "taken" was CONTROL of the money, done so as the 1108 Chairman M.S. already stated, was done under the authority and direction of the IBT Corporate offices, who made sure the "change of command" of the money was done properly. This was done for many reasons, including the following:

1. Duh. Control. The monies had to be put under the control of the incoming leadership, and taken away from the outgoing leadership who were no longer a part of the Local.

2. Well over 5 digits in "outstanding checks" by the "old" leadership for "expenses".

3. The "general fund" was pretty much depleted. Why is being investigated.

4. A missing SIGNED check for an amount well into 5 digits. No one at the Columbus office seems to know where it is.

5. On-going expenses. Payroll, bills need to be paid, the incoming leadership obviously needed access and permissions on the accounts to make that happen.



The CURRENT IBT 1108 leadership HAD to take control of the funds belonging to THEIR pilot group.

If the NJASAP leadership thinks some of that money is theirs, then they are free to have their lawyers straighten that out, but it's pretty cut and dry and legally that money stays with the Local whether the NJASAP leadership likes it or not.

There is no doubt that the IBT 1108 current leadership welcomes any legal investigations into any of this and as usual, they will operate legally and cooperate with any legal investigations.

It is sad that the NJASAP leadership or their private and privy peanut gallery (or their wives?) had to come and air their dirty laundry under fake names and make false statements and accusations in the public forum about the Flight Options leadership knowing that they have no facts to back up such false claims, trying to create animocity between the NJ and FO pilot groups as well as attempting to create doubt amongst the FO pilot group about their leadership. The timing of all of this during the critical end-phase of negotiations with the FO pilots and their company when solidarity is precariously important is also appauling. And I hear there IS an investigation proceeding regarding certain activities and ATTEMPTED activites from the NJASAP leadership regarding such expenses that were used and paid for by the Net Jets 1108 leadership for NJASAP organizing activities. This would of course be illegal spending.

Such attempts by the NJASAP leadership to create such doubt about the FO leadership may backfire and could prove that there may be reason to doubt the NJASAP pilot leadership and their ways of handling money.

If there was any criminal activities done regarding this topic, I would be willing to bet that the Flight Options 1108 MEC is not worried about anything on their end, they took control of the money as per the direction of the IBT Corporate office with their authority and attornie's direction, and what they did was the same thing the Net Jets NJASAP leadership would have done if the situation was reversed. The leadership has an obligation to the Local and its members to protect the Local's money. To suggest ANYTHING less than that is menutia and spoken in anger, because the NJASAP leadership didn't get to do what "they" wanted to do with the monies that "they" no longer have any legal right to. If they think they do.... they are more than welcome to prove it in court.

Having said that, I personally am extremely thankful for everything the Net Jets pilot group - their leadership and the entire pilot group - has done to assist the flight options pilot group in organizing and the help we have gained through support and solidarity toward our own pilot group achieving our first contract. I personally know every member of the FO MEC and know that they would never do anything illegal and that they do not wish to take anything that isn't "theirs". The only thing taken was control of the money. If there is money to be given to the Net Jets pilots, it will be given to them in the only way that it should be done: Legally and transparently.

We all are on the same team and we all should be helping each other to make the industry as safe as possible and as profitable as possible for everyone at the negotiations table. Making baseless accusations about the transfer of ownership of bank accounts during the departure of the Net Jets pilots from the Local 1108 does nothing but create unneeded strife.

And Grizz - I still got YOUR back, and would do anything I could to help a Net Jets pilot. Your implication is ridiculous. We are all on the same team, here.

 

[imacdog]

The only reason money wasn't stolen was because a stop payment was put on the check that ended up in the wrong hands. I guess we'll see who is in the right after the lawsuits are filed? If the FO MEC was in the right then why did they present falsified trustee documents to certain banks? And all this back-door attempted theft after all that the NetJets pilots have done for FO pilots. Interesting times for sure.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Falsified documents? I heard they have the signature of the IBT National President on them and AUTHORIZED the new leadership to take over those accounts. Hmmm. Nice try. Again, nothing was stolen, only bank account names changed. If you think the NJASAP pilots deserve any of the monies, legally prove it and stop calling the FO leadership thieves for doing nothing but securing control over the bank accounts of THEIR local.

Yeah. I guess we will see.

 

[realityman]

My sympathies to the FLOPS pilots. I hope this isn't a devastating blow to you. But no matter what, it's gonna hurt.

I don't believe any of us at NJA are mad at the rank and file pilots of FLOPS. It's the two members of your MEC that have earned out wrath.

For those of you who think we're making this up, or believe it's a 'misunderstanding',you'll need to get over your denial pretty quick and plan on a way to start cleaning house or you're probably destined to lose on multiple fronts (battling IBT and your company management).

Here's a good question to ask yourselves: What motive could we at NJA, who have worked our a**es off to HELP the FLOPS pilots set everything up, have for making these rather strong accusations about two of your MEC guys?

Here is the short version: We had an agreement, IN WRITING, for which there is, in fact, a convenient link to view it as posted by someone else on this thread. No less than FOUR of our highest ranking union officials have personally come on this thread to explain what happened and verify that the stories, while incredibly sad and unfortunate, are true.

There simply was no justification for anyone to falsify ANYTHING. It was unethical, immoral, and ILLEGAL.

The investigation is now ongoing.

For FREEDOM and the others who have doubts: You have been given the facts. What you do with those facts is entirely up to you and the rest of the FLOPS pilot group. If you choose to remain in denial and let these men lead you, then I wish you good luck. FREEDOM, you are entirely right. We will let the FLOPS pilots look after their own house.

My last question to FREEDOM: If you brought the slut home and used her as you wish, what would be your reaction if a neighbor told you that while you were at work, she had others over for 'entertainment'? Would you believe the neighbor, or the slut who would probably deny it? What if that neighbor was someone who had always gone out of his way to help you in whatever you needed?

A little food for thought.

 

[Freedom]

Look Guys

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the NetJets Pilots.

But I also have nothing but the utmost respect for my Union Leadership.

We learned a long time ago that we, as the Flight Options Pilots, had little to no power acting on our own. So we elected Leaders to Represent us.

Are we going to agree with every move they make? Absolutely not. But by the same token, we do not have access to the same information they do, as some things should stay confidential for strategic reasons. Airing our laundry in public does not do the Flight Options Pilots any good while they are trying to come together as One, to secure a First Contract. But some NetJets Pilots have chosen to do so. To stand on the sidelines and watch you attack the Integrity of men I know and respect? Well, that's just not how I am built.

I will state openly to every NetJets Pilot that if there was an agreement to loan funds to the NetJets Pilots to get them started on their new road, I believe that agreement should be honored. How it is honored is perhaps another story, and one that may have indeed evolved after advice was received from the National.

I know you guys don't think very highly of the National; or you would not have left the Organization.

But as Flight Options Management is so fond of saying to our Pilots: Flight Options is not NetJets. We still need the National in our corner, for now.

If my leadership acted in concert with representatives from the National Office, and did so in what they believe was in the best interest of the remaining members of the IBT 1108, they have my support.

I may or may not agree with their methods, nor know exactly what their methods were, but I do know they have gotten us here so far, we are in the End Game of Negotiations, and now is not the time to be changing horses.

Again, I cannot say it enough times. Thank you to the NetJets Pilots for helping the Flight Options Pilots through the growth stages of life. We could have never done it without you, and I for one will never forget it.

Sorry if the Divorce didn't go as smoothly as we all would have liked.

Freedom is not Free

 

[imacdog]

Let me put this in a way everyone of a reasonable intelligence can understand: There was an agreed-upon procedure in place for the transition of NetJets pilots' union representation from IBT to NJASAP. The two members of the FO MEC along with the now-former 1108 bookkeeper did not follow that procedure and now the police are involved. Had the IBT successfully stolen the money against procedure, the IBT would have had no reason to follow the rest of the transition agreement.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Hey RealityMan - here's a question for YOU:


Your leadership is no longer a part of the 1108. WHY should they still have access to the IBT 1108 funds?



The "two" MEC members you mention did what they were told to do by the IBT and did so under their authority.


The FO leadership is not trying to "steal" anything. They are not trying to keep anything that isn't rightfully theirs. The only thing they did was what they should have done for our pilots: Assume control of the local's finances.


If you or anyone at NJA have any entitlements to any monies, why do you think you won't get it? And if you think you won't get it, why would that be? Obviously, if there is any money that would be entitled to your pilot group a simple law suit would prove that and you'd get it - if that money was not freely given upon discovery, which is what I believe would happen.

I've known Ma Sl and Er Ma for several years and I know that neither one of them would steal anything from the NJA pilots - in fact I PERSONALLY know they both are very grateful for all the NJA pilots have done for our pilot group. They have no interest in stealing from you.

Again, I stress: The only thing "taken" was control of the bank accounts - they are not trying to "take" anything from anyone.

If someone with access to your bank accounts leaves your company, do you not take their name off your accounts? Same thing happened here. It is ridiculous and infintile to state that because our leadership took control of the funds that they are "stealing".

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Let me put this in a way everyone of a reasonable intelligence can understand: There was an agreed-upon procedure in place for the transition of NetJets pilots' union representation from IBT to NJASAP. The two members of the FO MEC along with the now-former 1108 bookkeeper did not follow that procedure and now the police are involved. Had the IBT successfully stolen the money against procedure, the IBT would have had no reason to follow the rest of the transition agreement.

And let me put this in a way that perhaps people with LESS than reasonable intelligence can understand: It was the IBT 1108's money in IBT 1108 bank accounts, and the money was not taken, control of the money simply changed to the new leadership. The "procedure" the two members of the FO MEC did was under the direction of the IBT National and their attornies. Police away. The NJASAP membership have no rights to the IBT 1108 bank accounts.

If there is any money that should be transferred to the NJASAP membership, it will happen transparently and legally. The FO MEC isn't trying to steal.

 

[realityman]

Falsified documents? I heard they have the signature of the IBT National President on them and AUTHORIZED the new leadership to take over those accounts. Hmmm. Nice try. Again, nothing was stolen, only bank account names changed. If you think the NJASAP pilots deserve any of the monies, legally prove it and stop calling the FO leadership thieves for doing nothing but securing control over the bank accounts of THEIR local.

Yeah. I guess we will see.

Sorry, but even the IBT president does not have the authority to authorize something that goes against their own by-laws, or to authorize something that is ILLEGAL.

Don't know what I'm talking about? Maybe you should brush up on IBT by-laws, and throw in a helping of RLA rules as well.
It's a bit complex, but nevertheless spells out what can and cannot be done.

What they attempted to do was sneaky, and CANNOT be done according to IBT's own rules!!

I'm not making this up. What motivation would I have for doing so?

Yes, documents were falsified. The fact that the IBT president's signature was on it only means that they were falsified WITH THE AID of the president. That doesn't make it right. It makes it WORSE!!

You have the facts. What you do with them is totally up to you. If you really trust those two particular members of your MEC, then best of luck to you. We don't plan on interfering with that.

We do plan on taking legal recourse where appropriate, but as far as sticking our nose in your business, no worries. You will still be forging your own destinies over there.

Best of luck to all of you.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Yep, I do have the facts, at least as they were explained to me and I see no problems with what has transpired, in fact I would expect the change of ownership of those accounts to be a matter of course and I'm surprised you didn't.

Again. I don't understand the problem, no one's taking anything but control. Any monies the NJA pilots are intitled to they will get, and if you think otherwise, show me - show US those facts.

You and your 2 or 3 others who are "surprisingly" in the know do not acknowledge the fact that this was simply about CONTROL of the money.

Again, I ask: WHY does ANY NJA pilot, who is NO LONGER a part of the IBT 1108, feel they should STILL have access to an 1108 bank account? THAT is all that's changed.

No one's stolen anything. I find it suspicious that there are those who think they should still have access to the funds of a union they are no longer part of. If the NJA pilots are OWED anything by the Local, bill us! We'll pay it, or dispute it, and if it's disputed, that's what lawyers are for. Your accusations of thievery are ludicrious and again, are baseless.

 

[gunfyter]

Concerning the Trusteeship paperwork signed by Hoffa.

It is my understanding that IBT has no authority to place 1108 under trusteeship.... if so this document was not forged but ginned up (invalid) and was used to gain control of the funds.

Slave,

Why did IBT use a false document to trick the bank and to gain control of monies coming from Netjets?

Could it be they did not want the NJ reps (afterall NJA pilots were still part of 1108 on July 7 and 8 and still entitled to access to 1108 funds on those dates) to know what they were doing?

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Concerning the Trusteeship paperwork signed by Hoffa.

It is my understanding that IBT has no authority to place 1108 under trusteeship.... if so this document was not forged but ginned up (invalid) and was used to gain control of the funds.

Slave,

Why did IBT use a false document to trick the bank and to gain control of monies coming from Netjets?

Could it be they did not want the NJ reps (afterall NJA pilots were still part of 1108 on July 7 and 8) to know what they were doing?

It is MY understanding that the IBT can place any Local in trusteeship whenever the GP thinks it is necessary.

And the two FO MEC members, who were members of the e-Board and would remain so after the split, were authorized by the GP to take control of those accounts. I can't speak to a document I've only heard about and not personally seen, but if it was done under the authorization of the GP, rather than without his consent, I think you're barking up a tree no one will care about. It was done so at a time the GP thought it necessary. From the response, I'm starting to assume he was correct in doing so. Why, what were the NJASAP pilots going to do with that money? It belongs and is still in the control of the 1108, which is what those accounts were for. You act like money was "taken", when in fact, it wasn't. It's still right where it is supposed to be. You just must be an 1108 member on the account to access it.

Again, I find it suspicious that there are those among the NJASAP pilot group that feel "they" deserve access to funds of a Union they are no longer part of.

Regardless, here's the bottom line - if the NJASAP leadership thinks some of those funds (all of which are IBT 1108 accounts) should be in the hands of the NJASAP leadership instead of the 1108, then submit the request to the IBT 1108 with an explanation of why that money should be transferred.

No one's taken anything. All the money is right where it should be - in the control of the 1108. Sorry that upsets you.

 

[Fozzy]

Read it then.

Here you go:

NJASAP/Teamsters Separation Agreement (PDF)

(link will expire in 7 days)

 

[nomore]

Gentlemen and Ladies

I suggest we stop posting on this thread right now. This seems to be a matter for the courts, not us, to decide. I know my MEC, honorable and trustworthy all. I've even met, in person, many of the NJ leadership and unless I'm a total dupe they are honorable and trustworthy as well. The 70 RIF'd pilots need this to stop. The underpaid and overworked FO pilots need this to stop. If you don't think our management isn't going to wring the last bit of mileage out of this then you don't Mikey and F&H very well. So please let's let this thread die and if this needs to go to court so be it.
Thanks

 

[Freedom]

You Speak of By-Laws

As the Former President of a Local Fraternity which was part of a National Fraternity, I can tell you that our "Local" had a set of By-Laws, and our National had a set of By-Laws.

Care to guess who's By-Laws trumped who's?

You got it; the National By-Laws took precidence over the Local By-Laws EVERY TIME.

It's part of being a Member of a National Organization.

The NetJets Pilots will no longer have to worry about such conflicts in their future, they have cut the cord.

But that does not mean the Flight Options Pilots no longer need to work hand in hand with our National. We are obligated to do so; and frankly, when it comes to having access to funds that should have no longer been under the NetJets Pilots control, I am glad our Leadership stepped into make the changes for authorized signatures.

We are dealing with individuals on both sides of this conflict. Individuals can at times do the wrong things if given the opportunity. Now, the funds which rightfully belong to the CURRENT Members of the IBT 1108 are Secured; those are funds the Flight Options Pilots will indeed need to complete their battle for a First Contract.

I for one, sleep better knowing these funds are now controlled by the Current Leadership of the IBT 1108, not by the Former Leadership of the IBT 1108. And it has nothing to do with any sort of distrust of the former leadership; it has everything to do with the responsible behavior My Leadership has demonstrated to secure the funds of My Local.

Thank you Mat S. and AJ M., President and Treasurer of the IBT local 1108.

Freedom is Not Free

 

[Diesel]

You know i'm not angry at the FO pilots, I'm angry at their leadership. Biting the hand that helped them along for so long.

I can't imagine that FO pilots would stand up for this type of corruption in their leadership. They are very honest and straightforward pilots and i would hate to see their reputation tarnished by the acts of two.

Especially if those actions had far reaching consequences to the rest of the FO pilot group.

A real shame.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Read it then.

Yeah. Paragraph B. (1) is the ONLY monies NJASAP is entitled to. No one's going to deny the NJASAP pilots the monies (which is a LOAN) they are entitled to, Fozzy. It just will be done with a check signed by a CURRENT member of the IBT 1108, not a former one.

All that the 2 FO MEC members did was to assure that B. (6) was complied with in regards to CONTROL of the accounts. The FO MEC has not to my knowledge denied paying what's agreed to in B.1 and 3. If it hasn't happened yet that doesn't mean it's not going to happen. That's all I can speak to.