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I need a different approach

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narrowing it down.

abev107 said:
And yes bobbysamd, I cant stand being told what to do. I guess my problem is with who's telling me what to do.

Does age of the instructor matter?
Have you received complete preflight briefings on what & how is to take place in the air?

In the same way there is "more than one way to skin a cat," there is more than one way to put an idea/concept/specific instruction to another person. Does the instructor you are flying with have this capacity?
 
Student-instructor relationship v. instructor-student relationship

Originally posted by abev107
I admire pilots. I admire them b/c they can do something that I cannot.
At the moment. Everyone was new at one time. No reason why you cannot learn how to fly. Others have and others will.
And yes bobbysamd, I cant stand being told what to do. I guess my problem is with who's telling me what to do.
I suspect that your instructor is (1) young enough to be your child and (1a) just as inexperienced, in your eyes; and/or (2) pushing you harder than you care to be pushed.

If your problem is (1) you could ask for an older instructor. It's hard for many older people to accept direction from a younger person. It's okay for me to say "older" because I am now "older," at nearly 52 (and the infrequent recipient of AARP mail :( ). On the other hand, pilots in the overall sense accept each other, regardless of age. In other words, maybe you're not accepting your instructor because of his/her age. Being old, grey and having crow's feet from years of open-cockpit airmail flying is not a prerequisite to be a good flight instructor.

In the case of (2), maybe your instructor was trained at one of the big commercial flight schools. Such schools are extremely intense, structured and scheduled, and instructors push students hard for them to succeed. If your instructor is a product of such a program, that may be the only approach to instructing that he/she knows. It may work fine for students in his/her school but not for you in your training environment. Apparently you are not under the same strictures and would do better learning at your own pace.

Try to accept your instructor. Also discuss with him/her that you prefer a less intense approach to training and are not in a real hurry to finish (Most students wanting a career are in a hurry.).

Once more, good luck with your training. That'll be $50, please. ;)

PS-Further to the importance of a good instructor-student relationship, I believe that I lost a job because my instructor might not have accepted me and/or my hiring at the company. On our first flight during a stall demonstration my instructor snarled at me in way that I did care for. All flight instructors snarl; they wouldn't be flight instructors if they didn't snarl. :) But his took on a certain edge that I felt was inappropriate for someone with my experience. It set a tone for the entire (short) time I was at this company.
 
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So true. I am one of those 'big school' CFI's. Often I catch myself getting a little too intense with my students. We are under enormous pressure to get the students through in a timely manner, at a reasonable price, and pass rate is all important.

Much of this pressure, for me, is self-induced. I was one of the students not so long ago and it was a fixed budget, make it or break it deal for me. I borrowed the money to get through and really had no other options to get more. Accordingly, I worked my a$$ off to get through under the quotes. I was successful and actually made it in $5000 less than quoted. I want my students to do the same.

For me, a snarling CFI was just what I wanted. Get me through this program as fast and cheap as possible. Let me know when I need to work harder.

However, being a CFI, you must realize that everyone has different motivations, fears, ability levels, work ethic, etc. Many of my students couldn't care less about the money and/or aren't willing to put the necessary time in to make it through cheaply. The CFI must learn to adapt to the student's needs.

I remember my Part 61 roots where flying was much more individually structured. I was in college, working almost full time, flying on the weekends. A snarling CFI would have really pissed me off as I had lots of outside stuff going on. Like abev (and most student pilots), I also had certain fears. The CFI must be calm, professional, understanding, and always leave the student an out. Mine was like that.

I have friends who went to the same flight school as I and, for one reason or another, chose to instruct in the Part 61 world. The hardest thing for them to get used to was the realization that not everyone is flying to make it to a professional level. Many don't even want a rating, they just want to fly. The rating will come when they're ready. This sounds like abev.

So, abev, you need to find a CFI who understands this. Once the CFI realizes that your goals are different from theirs, and from most students, it is much easier for them to relax and just have fun with you. If they think, as they have been programmed, that you want to get a PVT license in 40-50 hrs, they will push you, as they should.

Try flying with someone else once. Make sure you explain that you just want the experience of flying and aren't necessarily looking to fly through a PPL course. You will probably learn the same amount just by being in the airplane receiving instruction but the pressures will be less for both of you. Good luck!
 
abev107:

Since you have only about thirty something posts, I went back and looked at your posting history. Here's a quick synopsis -

1.) You need to find a new CFI or have a real heart-to-heart with your current CFI. You said earlier that your CFI never admitted to having problems with the learning process during his primary training. You are "afraid" that he doesn't understand your plight. You need to clear the air or shop for a more "understanding" CFI.

2.) Lose the "stars in your eyes". Pilots are only slightly better than ground pounders. We have one ability above mere earthlings and that is to think three dimensional - we add "up and down" to "back and forth" and "right and left". This is not an "impossible" mission - in fact flying airplanes is quite easy.

3.) I remember something on TV a few years ago that ran the SAS theatre - "Short Attention Span". Admit it - you've got it. Your CFI has to know this also. I've had a couple of students like this (more recently, in fact) and I think that our younger generation is just hooked on "bursts" of information (ala TV induced images) rather than long lessons. To counter this, I've had to make lessons where I don't "pound" a subject into the ground but rather "introduce" a lot of new stuff and then review the points that don't stick on a later lesson. SAS students get about 5 minutes on any given topic and then I move on.

That said - this post is already boring you - so have a great day and hang in there.
 
thanks, tarp that post was very insightful. Ironically the initials of my company is SAS.

No post is boring to me. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to write out their thoughts, whether seemingly positive or negative.
 
Abrev107,
First, hello. This is my first post here, and since I read your thread, I thought I'd make my introduction to you. I'm in primary flight training myself and feel we are very similar. I have logged about 40 hours though (I'd have to open the logbook and actually count to get an exact number). I have found riding in the back seat on occasion very helpful.

I teach horseback riding, hunter-jumpers, but not for shows, in case you're curious. I consider our goals in riding lessons to be the most practical, efficient, safe riders we can be. Riding horses and flying airplanes are very similar, only the horse doesn't get so far off the ground, take off and landing are much closer together, and the order in the pattern is different, setup, approach, take off, mid-flight, landing, departure. Ok so the only thing different is the departure after jumping a horse is after landing. If we could keep the horse in the air to depart the pattern, believe me, some of us would.

On to my flight training, which ties into riding instruction because I am teaching a few pilots how to keep horses between themselves and the ground. I haven't mentioned how much I love pilots. They (we, I also love that I can start including myself in that elite), have the unique perspective of seeing the world in ways nobody crawling around on the ground can, and we are in the unique position of having to rely totally on ourselves and our resources to keep us alive enough to walk away from the airplane (even if we have to sit in the airplane after shutdown until our knees quit shaking too bad to stand.)

I don't know when I quit squeaking out a weak, 'help ' on final, and changed to, "shhh, I can DO this." My cfi would always calmly say, "your doing fine." He also does tell me mistakes he makes, like calling the wrong field in sight, and realizing it when the airport didn't look quite right. I'm in the cross-country phase now, so getting lost is one of the latest concerns. I cried recently when I couldn't figure out for the life of me where 011 was on the DG and was drifting off course. The tears were frustration because I expect more out of myself and I'd already gotten shaken by mistakes earlier. I wasn't fully prepared for that flight anyway, and was disappointed in my performance.

Back to beginnings (forgive the tangents), I had that , "Oh Lord, THERE GOES THE GROUND." on take off, and, "Oh Lord, THERE'S THE GROUND, " throughout flights for quite a few hours. During demonstrated stalls, I alternated grabbing the glareshield, support structure by the windshield, the cfi's leg, and my seat. Once, I turned like I thought I was going to crawl in the back of the airplane. I'm in a Cessna 152. I'm within the weight limit of the baggage area, but wouldn't have been comfortable once I got back there, if I'd actually gotten all the way back there. I'm ready to ask my cfi if he'd do demo stalls again and even teach me a few of them, but only because I've ridden in the back seat of a couple of other airplanes to get used to a few scary maneuvers. I rode in the back seats of a couple of friends' T-6 Texans while they did aileron rolls, low-approaches, and break-aways into overhead approaches. After those, any maneuvers in the happy 152 seem tame. The point is, backseat riding can be a big help because I don't have to worry about anyone saying it's my turn to do the same maneuver, "you have the airplane." "Keep it. IIIIII don't want it."

Even after my first solo, I didn't want to solo again for a few weeks. I had to laugh while puttering around the pattern over and over when my cfi asked how about making the next one a full stop so I could go a few times without him sitting there being a distraction to me. I said, "I don't want to solo today," and he said, most incredulously, "hunh???" I just didn't feel in the groove and figured I'd be paying for his presence whether he's sitting next to me or standing looking up at me. I preferred him sitting next to me. He knows how to make me chuckle and said he was happy sitting up there until "they" shot us down. I started picturing someone else in the pattern or on the ground, perhaps at the hold-short, getting so annoyed with our little 152 taking up airspace that they'd actually blast us out of the sky. Good sense of humor, on both student and instructor's parts, is important to learning.

Connection between the student and cfi is very important too. I'm nervous with my cfi because I like him so much, I don't want to disappoint him, but I'm oddly at ease with him because he's such a calming spirit. I had to fly with a different one, a newly minted cfi. It was a surprise when I walked in and my own cfi couldn't be there, and had already asked her to fly with me. I should have followed my first instinct and either gone solo again, or gone home until I could reschedule with my own cfi. In a way, I felt like I knew more about the 152 than she did, though she'd done her primary in 152's. She had Archer numbers and the old PTS swirling in her head. She was very friendly, bubbly even, but I managed to feel like I had made a horrible mistake thinking I could ever possibly become a pilot. I alternated between feeling totally incompetant and wanting to say, "shut up and let me fly the d*** airplane. I was post solo then (had already been out to the practice area solo twice), and wished I'd just left her back at the ramp while I spent quality time alone with my metal winged steed. I do a lot of internal struggling too, so your posts ring close to home for me. I'll make an effort to do anything my cfi wants me to, but with the substitute, I resented the constant chatter. The only good I got out of it is that I realized I'm an impatient pilot with annoying passengers.

I don't know what will work for you to get over the anxiety. There should always be a certain amount of fear, or something. A pilot should never become totally comfortable or complacent. For me, taking time between lessons, even a few days (I was flying twice a week for a while), really dwelling over each flight and studying for the next one, helped. I hang out at the airport a lot. Go sit and watch airplanes in the pattern. Sit and listen to other pilots. I'm spending many hours flying my flight sim on my computer, fs 2002, multiplayer with other students from another website, and spending more hours solo in my flight sim going over emergency procedures. My landings after engine outs upon take off are strangely smoother than after normal approaches, go figure THAT one.

I've rambled on enough.
I'll just end saying that old cliche, "you're not alone."
 
Awesome

Horsefeather, I love your story.

Both of you hng in there and get those pilot certificates.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
 
THANKYOU JediNein!

I have your site open in another window where I've been reading your stories. I had to break for a little while to let the hubby use the computer. I'm reading about engine out enroute and it just clicked what the dead foot reference is too. Is that to determine exactly which engine is out because the other foot is keeping the wing with the live engine down? I really like your writing. Your stories are an inspiration to this little flight student. :D

I got a taste of multiengine in a 727 simulator that FedEx uses for training. My riding student/airplane guru showed me an engine out, then had me do one. When he showed me one on takeoff, I got him distracted by asking questions, and he forgot to start the dead engine. He ended up flying around the city, buzzing other airports, and swooping under the river bridge twice before realizing he was missing the left-most engine. Wow, he's good. He's not my primary cfi because he's not current teaching primary training, but is the reason I'm with my primary cfi.
 
Every little bit helps, horsefeather. and I agree with jedinein - your post was very well written and a great help.

Unfortunately where I am/was flying I felt like a freak b/c I was having problems. It seemed like everyone else was steam rolling through it.
 
Steamroller Blues

Not everyone steamrolls through flight training. Give me a group of fifty chosen at random. Ten might breeze through it. Another ten may struggle. The rest will make it through at an average pace, but they will make it.

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. You will find "naturals" in every endeavor. Most of the rest have to work at it, with some working harder than others, but nearly all eventually learn.

Don't gauge your progress by the other guy. Gauge it on what you are learning.

Once more, good luck with your training.
 

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