I need a different approach

[abev107]

I will try and stick to the facts...

It's been 6 weeks since my last flight. I have 10 hours. I stopped because of money. Let's face it though - I could have found the money if I wanted too.

I stopped b/c flying brought me too much anxiety. Anxiety caused tunnelvision, I could only do one thing at a time. And I didn't feel as safe as I felt I should have been.

I can fly as a passenger in anything thing - even on commercial flights my face is glued to the window, always looks to the wing to see when flaps are retracted or extended, listening for the gear to come up or down. Heck, sometimes I get funny looks b/c I mumble speed callouts on t/o.

I flew as a pax on a 172 while my CFI was giving an IFR lesson up front. It's a day I would never fly in as a pilot. Even looking down the road a ways I would probly avoid it. Ceilings were between 800-2000 agl - but I was still glued to the window looking for breaks trying to figure out where we were.

I have very little (none) anxiety as a pax. Aren't people more comfortable when THEY have the controls as opposed to someone else?

It makes no difference to me when I get my PPL - I am in no rush. And with the little experience I have, I realize it may be some time where I even want to fly by myself, let alone with no-experience pax.

So my latest thoughts are this: What can't I just take a CFI with me and just go wherever? Without "training", until I get more comfortable in the a/c. Will a CFI do this? Does some 25nm restriction take effect? To me whats an extra $45/hour if I am already spending $115/hr for the a/c? Meaning who cares if I have 150 hours before I get my PPL.

To me flying is fun training is not. And I know I have to do it. I want to be able to handle any situation.

A normal therapist would charge me $50 for this session.

 

[bigD]

Heh! I have a couple of friends that have been in your situation, so you're certainly not alone in your anxiety.

First of all, you'll always be able to find a CFI willing to just go up and fly with you. I have an uncle in law that lost his medical awhile ago, so he just takes a CFI with him whenever he flies. He doesn't mind - he likes the company and he learns a lot in the process. He says, "Sure, it's more expensive, but tons of pilots around here spend the extra 30 bucks an hour to rent a "new" 172 instead of a used one, so why not instead put that money into a CFI in the right seat?" Makes good sense to me.

What is it about the flying that brings you the anxiety? Can you pin that down? Could it be the manner in which your instructor handles the lessons? Maybe go up with a variety of different CFI's and see if one is a better match for your personality and situation. That could make a world of difference.

Anyway, good luck with it all, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking your time in getting your private.

 

[midlifeflyer]

>What can't I just take a CFI with me and just go wherever? Without "training", until I get more comfortable in the a/c. Will a CFI do this? Does some 25nm restriction take effect? To me what's an extra $45/hour if I am already spending $115/hr for the a/c? Meaning who cares if I have 150 hours before I get my PPL.

You can absolutely find a CFI that would do this. The truth is that, even taking periodic flights in the effort to simply become comfortable, you will learn and it will be that learning itself that will help with the comfort.

You're right. Typically people who are nervous about flying get more comfortable when they take the controls. But not always. Flying is an extremely personal control activity and some people feel more comfortable with that than others. (I have a story about a friend who was afraid of flying - different from your issues, but maybe instructive - at www.midlifeflight.com/fear.htm

One thing I would suggest. You want to really talk to the CFI about your plans and find one who expects to be around for a while. Consistency is important to both skill and confidence building.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
Absolutely, I'd go flying with you anywhere you wanted to go within the constraints of the aircraft's capabilities, weather and any restrictions placed on taking an airplane on a cross-country. However, this would be considered dual, and it seems like a real waste of time and money to go for the ride when you are technically recieving instruction.
I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, but I think your time and money would be better served by continuing your training and not "joyriding". Perhaps, a new instructor or a more intense training program. By intense, I mean something like a program that would get you in the air on a near daily basis with a heavy dose of ground lessons, briefing/debriefing.
Don't consider yourself any different than anyone else, myself included. We all had times in our primary training where we felt overwhelmed or weren't making the progress that we felt we should. Even within a heavily structured flight training program, it's an important and recognized fact that training must be tailored to the student's needs and goals.
I think if you get back into your syllabus and gain some confidence, flying will become what it should be...FUN!

Best of luck!

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[abev107]

I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, but I think your time and money would be better served by continuing your training and not "joyriding".

Thanks for the helpful replies. But to Kaman and others with similar thoughts: I don't mean to sound hoyty-toyty - but I think I have/want to "joy-ride". Because without joy-riding theres no flying at this point.

It seems like most student pilots want to hurry up and get the training over with, like it's some classroom where they just sit around for an hour just to get it over with. And they have to get to a magic number of say 50 hours and they are done. But you actually get to fly the plane during a lesson! To me at this point flying is fun, training is not. B/c training brings about this anxiety.

For me to pinpoint what my problem is... [Back to the couch]. I am a teacher, not a learner. I own my own business and I find it very difficult at times to take instructions from others. I am used to be the one telling. I am a terrible student and I hate tests. Most likely b/c I fear failure. I like to "do", then "correct". Like a new ad campaign - you can do studies and research till the cows come home, but until you run the ad, you wont know the results. And I KNOW I can't do that with flying.

And I have a difficult time making mistakes and being corrected b/c I add 10x to it. Like the time on one of my first landings: I got a go around at about 50' agl. Here's what I did in order - Readback to the tower i was going around, raised flaps, added power. I got the order right, just backwards. I still think about that. I was very lucky that I had a positive outcome.

I am a very compliant student - I am not nearly as defiant as i sound. I respect the time and experience that CFI's put into flying. I don't have an no-it-all attitude. I do feel like getting into an accident is very easy and can happen at any time. And I do think about that while flying.

Thanks in advance to all of the Av-Therapists out there.

 

[Swass]

I can relate to what your talking about. I had anxiety when I first learned to fly as well. I think the point that I got over it for the most part was when I did my first solo. I fly from a controlled airport and the controller threw me a loop (or two) when turning base he switched runways on me because of commercial traffic and a Lear on like a 7 mile final. Anyway I concentrated hard and did not let the change in runways or the traffic pattern confuse me. I made four successful touch and goes, switched back to my original runway and taxied back to the FBO. Talk about a shot of confidence. I thought that at that point I could handle anything within reason that I would probably encounter on my journey to my PPL, and I was right. After a big event like your first solo you'd be surprised at how the anxiety slowly melts away. After your first solo CC the anxiety will be almost nonexistent (in my case at least). Do what you have to do to finish, you've already made the commitment to start the process, enjoy the ride!

 

[Timebuilder]

Jedinein just posted this link to some stories that may help you.

PM with your comments to jedi, if you like.

http://pages.prodigy.net/jedinein/story/story.html

 

[na265]

Abev107, sounds to me like your plan is pretty good. Have FUN with your flying. Even by "joy-riding", you will be learning. At 10hrs. the learning curve is straight up. It also sounds to me like you are an airplane nut like the rest of us. That is good. When I had students who were nervous about their training we would sit down and talk. Having a CFI who will listen and be flexible with your training needs is very important. I think I have rambled on here, I guess what I'm saying is do what you need to complete training. More pilots is always good. Have fun, be safe and don't give up!

 

[abev107]

Thanks Timebuilder, Jedinein pm'ed me with the helpful link.

And na265, thanks for the comments. That's the calming influence I need. And you didnt ramble.

I think I am an airplane nut - my CFI would have to bring my attention back to taxiing b/c I would be staring at other planes taking off and landing.

This sounds like it may be counter-productive, but what if I offered my services as a safety pilot. Could I be a safety pilot with 10 hours? (Maybe it would be a safety student pilot) Unlikely as a CFI's safety pilot (is it?). And maybe in return for my "questions bombardment" I could say, handle the radios and maybe buy lunch.

 

[JediNein]

Check your PMs, Abev107.

 

[Kaman]

Hello Abev,
Unfortunately, to act as a safety pilot you have to be appropriately rated and current in the category and class of aircraft in which the flight is to be flown.
That being said, you could do what I did years ago and be an "airport bum" on your day's off or when you have a few hours of spare time. I lucked out on numerous occasions and went on some flights with people that had an empty seat. And the FBO where I learned also did the traffic patrol flights and I went along on that and logged quite a bit of free stick time.
Best of luck, and I'm sure that you'll find a niche that works for you.

regards,

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[Rvrrat]

Within the confines of the regulations and operational limitations of the aircraft, the one paying the bill gets to do what one wants. If what is wanted is an "extended test drive" then by all means have at it!

Good mention of incidental learning in the above posts.

Excerpts from FAA-H-8083-9 Aviation Instructor's Handbook:

"Helping Students Learn
Learning should be an enjoyable experience. By making each lesson a pleasurable experience for the student, the instructor can maintain a high level of student motivation. This does not mean the instructor must make things easy for the student of sacrifice standards of performance to please the student."
"Learning should be interesting."
"Learning to fly should provide students with an opportunity for exploration and experimentation."

 

[groundpointsix]

Abev107:
I think people have provided a pretty good answer to your original question. I say as long as you can find the money for it, continue to pay an instructor to take you flying. Just make sure you still log the flight time as instruction. This way you can still get the experience you need to earn your licence. (Yes, somewhere along the line you will have to sit down and do the not-as-fun stuff that everyone has to do, but perhaps by then you will be more comfortable in the aircraft and it won't seem as stressful) There's nothing wrong with taking your time in getting your licence, particularly if you have nothing at stake in it. Enjoy flying, that's what it's all about!

 

[bobbysamd]

Fear of flying v. fear of flight training v. (unfounded) fear of making mistakes

I am a teacher, not a learner. I own my own business and I find it very difficult at times to take instructions from others. I am used to be the one telling. I am a terrible student and I hate tests. Most likely b/c I fear failure. I like to "do", then "correct". Like a new ad campaign - you can do studies and research till the cows come home, but until you run the ad, you wont know the results. And I KNOW I can't do that with flying.

And I have a difficult time making mistakes and being corrected b/c I add 10x to it . . . . . I am a very compliant student - I am not nearly as defiant as i sound . . . .

(emphasis added)

I read mixed messages in your comments. First you say that you are a compliant student. Then you say that you are a terrible student and dislike tests. Along with that you say that you fear failure. And, you say you find it difficult at times to take instruction from others. Maybe that's why you have flying anxiety - although I'd hazard a guess that it is really failure and critique anxiety.

One of the ironic things about flight training is as a student you are paying someone good money to give you a hard time. As well-intentioned as students may be, many stop flight training because they cannot stand being told what to do. Many high-powered professionals are that way. They cannot believe that they have to submit to someone criticizing their every move - no matter how caring and diplomatic the instructor may be. Moreover, they cannot stand meeting someone who may know more about something than they do. These are typically "can-do" type people who are achievers but have now found something that they "cannot-do," at least until they learn. And that makes them fearful.

On the other hand, if such people can accept that they don't know everything and are willing to be taught, they oftentimes become excellent and dedicated pilots. From your description of yourself, I wonder if you might fall in this category.

Before taking offense, read again what I've just wrote. The long and short of it is if you are truly humble and are willing to learn - and have no fear of making mistakes - you can become a fine pilot. You just have to be willing to learn. Making mistakes is all part of the learning process. Do not be afraid to make them. Do be afraid that you will not learn from them.

I appreciate my friend Rvrrat's quote from the FOI.

 

[abev107]

you are getting warmer

I am a good student meaning I am compliant - not a no-it-all. I listen very intently and do what I am told. Alot of my problems are my internal struggles. It may sound like I am having at it with my CFI. I have been accused of agreeing and disagreeing in the same sentence.

I am not a high powered executive. And I am willing to learn. And I understand and fully agree that my CFI knows way more than me. I admire pilots. I admire them b/c they can do something that I cannot.

Bottom line: I love to fly and be in the plane, but anxiety levels can be so high that I cannot function the way I want to. And I want to get over the fear.

And yes bobbysamd, I cant stand being told what to do. I guess my problem is with who's telling me what to do.

 

[Rvrrat]

narrowing it down.

And yes bobbysamd, I cant stand being told what to do. I guess my problem is with who's telling me what to do.

Does age of the instructor matter?
Have you received complete preflight briefings on what & how is to take place in the air?

In the same way there is "more than one way to skin a cat," there is more than one way to put an idea/concept/specific instruction to another person. Does the instructor you are flying with have this capacity?

 

[bobbysamd]

Student-instructor relationship v. instructor-student relationship

Originally posted by abev107
I admire pilots. I admire them b/c they can do something that I cannot.

At the moment. Everyone was new at one time. No reason why you cannot learn how to fly. Others have and others will.

And yes bobbysamd, I cant stand being told what to do. I guess my problem is with who's telling me what to do.

I suspect that your instructor is (1) young enough to be your child and (1a) just as inexperienced, in your eyes; and/or (2) pushing you harder than you care to be pushed.

If your problem is (1) you could ask for an older instructor. It's hard for many older people to accept direction from a younger person. It's okay for me to say "older" because I am now "older," at nearly 52 (and the infrequent recipient of AARP mail ). On the other hand, pilots in the overall sense accept each other, regardless of age. In other words, maybe you're not accepting your instructor because of his/her age. Being old, grey and having crow's feet from years of open-cockpit airmail flying is not a prerequisite to be a good flight instructor.

In the case of (2), maybe your instructor was trained at one of the big commercial flight schools. Such schools are extremely intense, structured and scheduled, and instructors push students hard for them to succeed. If your instructor is a product of such a program, that may be the only approach to instructing that he/she knows. It may work fine for students in his/her school but not for you in your training environment. Apparently you are not under the same strictures and would do better learning at your own pace.

Try to accept your instructor. Also discuss with him/her that you prefer a less intense approach to training and are not in a real hurry to finish (Most students wanting a career are in a hurry.).

Once more, good luck with your training. That'll be $50, please.

PS-Further to the importance of a good instructor-student relationship, I believe that I lost a job because my instructor might not have accepted me and/or my hiring at the company. On our first flight during a stall demonstration my instructor snarled at me in way that I did care for. All flight instructors snarl; they wouldn't be flight instructors if they didn't snarl. But his took on a certain edge that I felt was inappropriate for someone with my experience. It set a tone for the entire (short) time I was at this company.

 

[172driver]

So true. I am one of those 'big school' CFI's. Often I catch myself getting a little too intense with my students. We are under enormous pressure to get the students through in a timely manner, at a reasonable price, and pass rate is all important.

Much of this pressure, for me, is self-induced. I was one of the students not so long ago and it was a fixed budget, make it or break it deal for me. I borrowed the money to get through and really had no other options to get more. Accordingly, I worked my a$$ off to get through under the quotes. I was successful and actually made it in $5000 less than quoted. I want my students to do the same.

For me, a snarling CFI was just what I wanted. Get me through this program as fast and cheap as possible. Let me know when I need to work harder.

However, being a CFI, you must realize that everyone has different motivations, fears, ability levels, work ethic, etc. Many of my students couldn't care less about the money and/or aren't willing to put the necessary time in to make it through cheaply. The CFI must learn to adapt to the student's needs.

I remember my Part 61 roots where flying was much more individually structured. I was in college, working almost full time, flying on the weekends. A snarling CFI would have really pissed me off as I had lots of outside stuff going on. Like abev (and most student pilots), I also had certain fears. The CFI must be calm, professional, understanding, and always leave the student an out. Mine was like that.

I have friends who went to the same flight school as I and, for one reason or another, chose to instruct in the Part 61 world. The hardest thing for them to get used to was the realization that not everyone is flying to make it to a professional level. Many don't even want a rating, they just want to fly. The rating will come when they're ready. This sounds like abev.

So, abev, you need to find a CFI who understands this. Once the CFI realizes that your goals are different from theirs, and from most students, it is much easier for them to relax and just have fun with you. If they think, as they have been programmed, that you want to get a PVT license in 40-50 hrs, they will push you, as they should.

Try flying with someone else once. Make sure you explain that you just want the experience of flying and aren't necessarily looking to fly through a PPL course. You will probably learn the same amount just by being in the airplane receiving instruction but the pressures will be less for both of you. Good luck!

 

[tarp]

abev107:

Since you have only about thirty something posts, I went back and looked at your posting history. Here's a quick synopsis -

1.) You need to find a new CFI or have a real heart-to-heart with your current CFI. You said earlier that your CFI never admitted to having problems with the learning process during his primary training. You are "afraid" that he doesn't understand your plight. You need to clear the air or shop for a more "understanding" CFI.

2.) Lose the "stars in your eyes". Pilots are only slightly better than ground pounders. We have one ability above mere earthlings and that is to think three dimensional - we add "up and down" to "back and forth" and "right and left". This is not an "impossible" mission - in fact flying airplanes is quite easy.

3.) I remember something on TV a few years ago that ran the SAS theatre - "Short Attention Span". Admit it - you've got it. Your CFI has to know this also. I've had a couple of students like this (more recently, in fact) and I think that our younger generation is just hooked on "bursts" of information (ala TV induced images) rather than long lessons. To counter this, I've had to make lessons where I don't "pound" a subject into the ground but rather "introduce" a lot of new stuff and then review the points that don't stick on a later lesson. SAS students get about 5 minutes on any given topic and then I move on.

That said - this post is already boring you - so have a great day and hang in there.

 

[abev107]

thanks, tarp that post was very insightful. Ironically the initials of my company is SAS.

No post is boring to me. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to write out their thoughts, whether seemingly positive or negative.

 

[horsefeather]

Abrev107,
First, hello. This is my first post here, and since I read your thread, I thought I'd make my introduction to you. I'm in primary flight training myself and feel we are very similar. I have logged about 40 hours though (I'd have to open the logbook and actually count to get an exact number). I have found riding in the back seat on occasion very helpful.

I teach horseback riding, hunter-jumpers, but not for shows, in case you're curious. I consider our goals in riding lessons to be the most practical, efficient, safe riders we can be. Riding horses and flying airplanes are very similar, only the horse doesn't get so far off the ground, take off and landing are much closer together, and the order in the pattern is different, setup, approach, take off, mid-flight, landing, departure. Ok so the only thing different is the departure after jumping a horse is after landing. If we could keep the horse in the air to depart the pattern, believe me, some of us would.

On to my flight training, which ties into riding instruction because I am teaching a few pilots how to keep horses between themselves and the ground. I haven't mentioned how much I love pilots. They (we, I also love that I can start including myself in that elite), have the unique perspective of seeing the world in ways nobody crawling around on the ground can, and we are in the unique position of having to rely totally on ourselves and our resources to keep us alive enough to walk away from the airplane (even if we have to sit in the airplane after shutdown until our knees quit shaking too bad to stand.)

I don't know when I quit squeaking out a weak, 'help ' on final, and changed to, "shhh, I can DO this." My cfi would always calmly say, "your doing fine." He also does tell me mistakes he makes, like calling the wrong field in sight, and realizing it when the airport didn't look quite right. I'm in the cross-country phase now, so getting lost is one of the latest concerns. I cried recently when I couldn't figure out for the life of me where 011 was on the DG and was drifting off course. The tears were frustration because I expect more out of myself and I'd already gotten shaken by mistakes earlier. I wasn't fully prepared for that flight anyway, and was disappointed in my performance.

Back to beginnings (forgive the tangents), I had that , "Oh Lord, THERE GOES THE GROUND." on take off, and, "Oh Lord, THERE'S THE GROUND, " throughout flights for quite a few hours. During demonstrated stalls, I alternated grabbing the glareshield, support structure by the windshield, the cfi's leg, and my seat. Once, I turned like I thought I was going to crawl in the back of the airplane. I'm in a Cessna 152. I'm within the weight limit of the baggage area, but wouldn't have been comfortable once I got back there, if I'd actually gotten all the way back there. I'm ready to ask my cfi if he'd do demo stalls again and even teach me a few of them, but only because I've ridden in the back seat of a couple of other airplanes to get used to a few scary maneuvers. I rode in the back seats of a couple of friends' T-6 Texans while they did aileron rolls, low-approaches, and break-aways into overhead approaches. After those, any maneuvers in the happy 152 seem tame. The point is, backseat riding can be a big help because I don't have to worry about anyone saying it's my turn to do the same maneuver, "you have the airplane." "Keep it. IIIIII don't want it."

Even after my first solo, I didn't want to solo again for a few weeks. I had to laugh while puttering around the pattern over and over when my cfi asked how about making the next one a full stop so I could go a few times without him sitting there being a distraction to me. I said, "I don't want to solo today," and he said, most incredulously, "hunh???" I just didn't feel in the groove and figured I'd be paying for his presence whether he's sitting next to me or standing looking up at me. I preferred him sitting next to me. He knows how to make me chuckle and said he was happy sitting up there until "they" shot us down. I started picturing someone else in the pattern or on the ground, perhaps at the hold-short, getting so annoyed with our little 152 taking up airspace that they'd actually blast us out of the sky. Good sense of humor, on both student and instructor's parts, is important to learning.

Connection between the student and cfi is very important too. I'm nervous with my cfi because I like him so much, I don't want to disappoint him, but I'm oddly at ease with him because he's such a calming spirit. I had to fly with a different one, a newly minted cfi. It was a surprise when I walked in and my own cfi couldn't be there, and had already asked her to fly with me. I should have followed my first instinct and either gone solo again, or gone home until I could reschedule with my own cfi. In a way, I felt like I knew more about the 152 than she did, though she'd done her primary in 152's. She had Archer numbers and the old PTS swirling in her head. She was very friendly, bubbly even, but I managed to feel like I had made a horrible mistake thinking I could ever possibly become a pilot. I alternated between feeling totally incompetant and wanting to say, "shut up and let me fly the d*** airplane. I was post solo then (had already been out to the practice area solo twice), and wished I'd just left her back at the ramp while I spent quality time alone with my metal winged steed. I do a lot of internal struggling too, so your posts ring close to home for me. I'll make an effort to do anything my cfi wants me to, but with the substitute, I resented the constant chatter. The only good I got out of it is that I realized I'm an impatient pilot with annoying passengers.

I don't know what will work for you to get over the anxiety. There should always be a certain amount of fear, or something. A pilot should never become totally comfortable or complacent. For me, taking time between lessons, even a few days (I was flying twice a week for a while), really dwelling over each flight and studying for the next one, helped. I hang out at the airport a lot. Go sit and watch airplanes in the pattern. Sit and listen to other pilots. I'm spending many hours flying my flight sim on my computer, fs 2002, multiplayer with other students from another website, and spending more hours solo in my flight sim going over emergency procedures. My landings after engine outs upon take off are strangely smoother than after normal approaches, go figure THAT one.

I've rambled on enough.
I'll just end saying that old cliche, "you're not alone."

 

[JediNein]

Awesome

Horsefeather, I love your story.

Both of you hng in there and get those pilot certificates.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[horsefeather]

THANKYOU JediNein!

I have your site open in another window where I've been reading your stories. I had to break for a little while to let the hubby use the computer. I'm reading about engine out enroute and it just clicked what the dead foot reference is too. Is that to determine exactly which engine is out because the other foot is keeping the wing with the live engine down? I really like your writing. Your stories are an inspiration to this little flight student.

I got a taste of multiengine in a 727 simulator that FedEx uses for training. My riding student/airplane guru showed me an engine out, then had me do one. When he showed me one on takeoff, I got him distracted by asking questions, and he forgot to start the dead engine. He ended up flying around the city, buzzing other airports, and swooping under the river bridge twice before realizing he was missing the left-most engine. Wow, he's good. He's not my primary cfi because he's not current teaching primary training, but is the reason I'm with my primary cfi.

 

[abev107]

Every little bit helps, horsefeather. and I agree with jedinein - your post was very well written and a great help.

Unfortunately where I am/was flying I felt like a freak b/c I was having problems. It seemed like everyone else was steam rolling through it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Steamroller Blues

Not everyone steamrolls through flight training. Give me a group of fifty chosen at random. Ten might breeze through it. Another ten may struggle. The rest will make it through at an average pace, but they will make it.

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. You will find "naturals" in every endeavor. Most of the rest have to work at it, with some working harder than others, but nearly all eventually learn.

Don't gauge your progress by the other guy. Gauge it on what you are learning.

Once more, good luck with your training.

 

[toneal]

steamrollers can run out of gas...