I can't understand the low pay

[wil]

Maybe we need a one day "Regional Airline Sickout" to bring focus to this issue?

 

[jarhead]

To some degree, the strike did contribute to better pay than before the strike, as well as some other contract improvements in other areas than pay alone.

In my view, a strike now would not be very effective. The 121 carriers (with a few exceptions) are in the toilet. Many are losing money hand over fist. When airlines are furloghing pilots in the thousands, the union is not going to be able to negotiate from a position of any power at all.

As posted previously in this thread, DAL has learned something from the 356 million dollar loss it took as a direct result of the Comair strike. DCI carriers are begining to be spread around with overlapping routes, so that if one regional carrier should strike, the other overlapping routes of other regional connection carriers simply would pick up the pax that were another carriers bread and butter before such strike. As I understand it, this would not be flying "struck work" if a route was already established by another carrier in the umbrella.

Times have changed, and the market will more and more dictate what contract terms can be reached. You see the concessions now being asked for by the majors, just to avoid bancruptcy. You can't get blood out of a turnip, and you can't get a big dollar contract, where the airline is trying just to stay in business.

Many regional pilots no longer aspire to get to a major, using the regional as just a 'stepping stone' to do so. I know many Comair pilots who walked that picket line in 2001 now see that carrier as a career. To give up the seniority to go to a major, just makes them furlough fodder, as being junior on the major's seniority list. It will be years before all the furloughed pilots at the majors are recalled, so unless it's Jet Blue or Southwest............

 

[bobbysamd]

AFTRA

For all of you who are interested, I am a member of AFTRA-SAG, part of the AFL-CIO. I am a writer and have been so fortunate to make over 50k since for the past 7 years . . . .

AFTRA is a strong union. I sure wish I could have had AFTRA representation during the fifteen years that I was employed full-time in radio. There are times that I and others could have used it.

There are a lot of similarities between radio and professional aviation. There is no shortage of people who want to be on the air compared to the available jobs. With few exceptions new radio talent has to start in 250-watt stations in some real G-d-forsaken places. Many work for years in small markets, putting up with unbelievably bad bosses and working conditions before they have enough experience and/or can catch a break. They do it, myself included, because they have ambitions and dreams, and love being behind the mike. Just like pilots who love the cockpit. And there are plenty of broadcasters who work cheap, just to stay in radio.

I think part of the problem is that pilot unions have lost much of their clout during the past twenty-five years. We can thank deregulation and Frank in part for that loss of clout. We've had plenty of discussions on that topic elsewhere on the board. And, once again, Flying the Line Volumes I and II by George Hopkins and Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger are strongly suggested reading.

 

[pilotyip]

to pilotwife

So you write for a living, you have a special skill and that is why you get paid as much as you do. When you write your contribution to your company is why they have you write and have hired you for that poisitioon. You are unique. Althought you may think a pilot's job is hard, anyone on this board can fly an airplane, but very few, myself included, can write or spell. An airline employer hires at the lowest rate allowed becasue a pilot is a commodity, like corn futures, a comm MEL Inst who can fly is all that is needed. Whe there is an excess of corn, prices go down, when there is a shortage of corn the price goes up.

 

[WrightAvia]

90,000 a year? I don't believe dat **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**

Comair in January of 1997, and was being paid around 18,000 a year as an FO, and sold paint at Sears part time on his days off, to supplement his income. He was not married when he started at Comair. He will be married this month, at the ripe old age of 32. His pay will go from $84,000 a year right now, up to $90,000 at the end of this month. To be accurate, Sim instructors are paid a premiun over a line pilot, so that is why $90,000 may seem a bit high for a CA with 6 years seniority.

and they complain that commuter pilots make toooo little money? Jeeeze. I don't buy it. There is no way in hell that a guy goes from 18K to 90K in 6 years.

 

[Skygod]

Mrs Wife,

The managment at my airline, when asked exactly your question, says "if you don't like it here then leave." The pilots take it as management doesn't care about them. Management takes it as they must like it as they didn't all leave.

At the other end of the pay scales, why do guys and gals making $500,000 a year keep working year after year rather than retire and spend time with the kids or surfing every day? It's not all about the money. It's about power, competation, control. Or the flying.

 

[jarhead]

I guess that's your problem. I don't really care if you believe it or not. Look up the contract for Comair, and read the section on compensation for Captain-Instructors. Then you can apologize for your hostile, and mean spirited post. I have no intention of providing you with my son's W-2 form.

Incidentally, my son has never said he is not paid enough. All the rants about 1st year FO pay is true. You pay your dues, work hard, upgrade, and get yourself recruited into the training department, and life can be good.

Take a pill, and get over it.

 

[WrightAvia]

mean spirited post?

Nobody in real life goes from 19K a year to 90K a year in 5 or six years. If they do, they don't deserve it and should be replaced by freedom air or great sky airlines.

 

[jarhead]

OK, It's all in my imagination. I have no intention of arguing the point. Do you know how to look up the Comair contract? If you can do that, do you think you can find and understand the section on compensation for Simulator instructors?

I will not do your homework for you, nor will I debate the point any more. You just are not that important to me.

 

[WrightAvia]

90,000 a year in 6 years...

Dude, I don't know guys at ATA or Midwest Airlines that get that and they fly real airplanes. Not only that, FEDEX DUDES Don't get that. How can I be sympathetic towards commuter dudes that get 90 grand a year.

If Comair pilots are getting that, then why isn't everybody else?

 

[jarhead]

Was someone asking you for your sympathy.........DUDE?

 

[WrightAvia]

hahaha. I guess not.

 

[skootertrash]

Just remember that asking for advice/sympathy on this board AND 1.50$ will get you a cup of coffee. Without the 1.50$ you will just get pi$$ed off and frustrated.

 

[FSB99]

simple answer to the original question of "why?"

give your hubby 6 months in his new job, and he'll understand why.

 

[SkyWstman]

Why the low pay? Partly because every passenger wants to fly for free. Every one wants the cheapest ticket they can find. I have to bite my tongue every time I hear a passenger ask when the planes are going to get bigger again. I want to say "when you are willing to pay for it."

 

[enigma]

My question is... HOW AND WHY did $19,000 ever get passed as an acceptable, liveable salary FOR A PILOT ? Where did this happen, what years and what was the environment that everyone didn't REVOLT and say THIS IS RIDICULOUS! EVEN TAKE IT TO THE MEDIA, YOUR CONGRESSMAN, A LABOR LAW ATTORNEY, THE FEDERAL LABOR DEPARTMENT? ANYBODY ????

Nineteen large (and lower) never got passed as a liveable salary. It did get passed as a wage that pilots are willing to work for. Pilots didn't revolt because doing so might have made them realisticly ineligable for continuing in the career, and the top rung of the ladder was/is considered a goal worthy of sacrifice in order to attain.

My next question is WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT? There has to be something someone can do to get you guys a more liveable wage? I'm not even talking big money, I mean $35,000.
I can tell you that no one, NO ONE, believes me when I tell them what a F.O. makes flying a regional jet with a big name logo on it.
I don't know ANYONE who makes that low of pay in a full time job!

I wish I knew. Maybe you should take your writing skills and submit articles to periodicals such as ProPilot, Flying, FlightTraining, etc that detail the truth about a flying career. Lord knows, someone needs to tell the truth about the career; most "wanna-be's" never find out how difficult it is until AFTER they spend $100 grand on flight training.

People come into the business with stars in their eyes, willing to do anything in order to fly. We will have to reduce the number of pilots before wages get better. Might as well try and "nip it in the bud" by shutting off some of the new pilots.

First of all, the skill and pay you guys put out for training and schooling. Now the security and terrorism threats looming over you. It's a complete insult.

Absolutely, but we willingly accept the slight.

With little hiring, many of you are facing F.O. positions for a long time to come. What can be done?

Reduce the number of available pilots willing to work for nothing.

I am a member of a union at my full-time job (Non airline) and I can tell you the one advantage is great wages.

How has your union managed to be the sole provider of your product? Until our union manages to become the sole provider of pilots, we're hosed. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

I urge you to become active in your cause! Speak out and demand better pay! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DEMANDING A LIVEABLE WAGE. I guarantee you NO ONE WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOU! YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED AT THE SUPPORT YOU GET!

A supportive wife!

If I read you right, this paragraph shows your real intent. I totally agree, but we must recognize that Labor Law is very specific about the things we can do to further our cause. A pilot group working under a legal contract can not just decide to demand more money. This must be done when the contract is open for renegotiation. Any attempt to change the terms before is specifically illegal. Therefore, we must work in a general sense; trying to change hearts and minds so that when the time comes people will not roll over and allow wages to stay low. Even more importantly, we must try and inform the potential pilots of the truth pertaining to the career. Truths like: there is no pilot shortage, zero to 747 Captain takes longer than 18 months, etc.

The pay won't get better until the number of jobs outnumbers the available pilots. Even if each organized group makes gains in their upcoming contract negotiations, we will still lose ground if there are enough pilots available to staff the next Freedom/AirTran/ValueJet, etc. That is why we need a true union, not an association.

regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

Re: Real Problem

Nevertheless, one thing being lost in this situation is that the individual in this case is well over qualified for the position that they find themselves in. ...............

He is qualified but in what for all intent and purpose is an entry level position in regional airlines. It does not pay much but gives you the opportinity to build experience and move up.

B S Alert,
B S Alert.

This is management spin; an attempt to justify low wages. It is pure Bull Manure.

The right seat of a two pilot, passenger carrying aircraft is NOT entry level. It may be the bottom of the pay scale because of the lack of revenue capability of a 19/30/33/50 seat aircraft, but it is definitely not entry level.

Maybe you should attempt to tell a FAA inspector who is observing FO checkrides that he needs to ease up because the job is entry level. He'd laugh you out of the sim. The FO is an integral part of the modern cockpit and is expected to be every bit as good as the Captain. The only difference in the two seats is in who signs the release. The FO must fly to the same standards as the Captain.

I might agree if we were talking about the right seat of a single pilot Navajo who is only there because of company rules or a jump pilot or a banner tow-er, but the FAA has determined that RJ's (and ever other airliner that I am aware of) requires two pilots.

Once again, just because it's at the bottom of the airline pay scale because of economics, doesn't mean it's entry level.

enigma

 

[wil]

Hey Wright- My pay is based around 75 hour guarantee which works out to be mis 50's without flying over that. Our Instructors get 95 hours min plus for every hour of IOE they get another hour of pay. I am applying this summer to the training department and have only been with the Airline for 3 years. So Jarhead's son is probably in the low 6 figures. I don't know your background but learn the facts before you flame someone-

 

[jarhead]

Thank you, Wil.
Good luck with your pursuit of working in the training department. I am sure you will love it, and the pay IS quite nice

 

[surfnole]

I'm doing my part to make pilot wages higher by refusing to work for such cr*p salaries. ;^)

Several years back I considered the *career change*, but despite my heart telling me what to do, the cold numbers stared me in the face. My jobs OK. pays decent to good, and I'm home every weekend and night.

On the other hand, my company has hired several thousand employees in India and none in the states, and we haven't had a raise in three years. I don't know how much of a future there will be here either.