HR5449 (ATC contract)

[smellthejeta]

A 4 year ATC degree is a huge waste...

I'm taking the CTI course as a minor.

Agreed. Anybody who did ATC for a major at a 4-yr is pretty stupid. I would expect that most of them are minors.

 

[smellthejeta]

No mass resignations - but a whole lot of retirements over the next three years or so. Mine included.

I'm not in a position to argue with you on this point, but I happen to agree with you for whatever my lay opinion is worth.

The system won't collapse. There won't be chaos in the skies. What there will be is a slow erosion of the margin of safety, as fewer, more fatigued controllers try to keep things afloat, while training new hires. One of the FAA's plans involves checking out new hires on just a couple of sectors, then letting them rot there. It'll be cheaper, since they won't have to pay partially qualified controllers as much as fully qualified controllers.

What makes you think there will be enough newhires to do anything practical? Yeah, despite the fact that they claim they were going to accelerate the CPC process, my bet is that they would just let us rot on our "training scopes" or whatever you call it. The longer we're not CPC's, the less we cost. If the rumored new hire payscales are true, I make more money pumping jet fuel than I would on the first three or so (including OKC) training pay grades.

The system is fragile enough already, as anyone who flys on a mid-summer thunderstorm day knows. It's going to just get a little more fragile.

When I worked for the airlines, I spent a week at our ORD Station Ops center (hub for our UAX affiliate regional airline). We had embedded T-Storms in huge lines up and down most of the central part of the country. We were cancelling flights left and right, and our aircraft were backing up on the gates and overflowing the penalty box. Things were so bad we couldn't get our inbound crews off of the planes to crew the planes sitting at the gate. All the while we were posting all sorts of useless delay messages on our boards.

If that scenario is representative of what the future of ATC will be like, how is that not complete collapse?

 

[Hold West]

What makes you think there will be enough newhires to do anything practical? Yeah, despite the fact that they claim they were going to accelerate the CPC process, my bet is that they would just let us rot on our "training scopes" or whatever you call it. The longer we're not CPC's, the less we cost. If the rumored new hire payscales are true, I make more money pumping jet fuel than I would on the first three or so (including OKC) training pay grades.

There will be those who want the job at all cost - there are those who've done the ATC as a major, and don't have anything else going. Think of all the folks signing up for PFT to get a job at a regional airline paying a pittance. There will be plenty of people willing to take the job.

When I worked for the airlines, I spent a week at our ORD Station Ops center (hub for our UAX affiliate regional airline). We had embedded T-Storms in huge lines up and down most of the central part of the country. We were cancelling flights left and right, and our aircraft were backing up on the gates and overflowing the penalty box. Things were so bad we couldn't get our inbound crews off of the planes to crew the planes sitting at the gate. All the while we were posting all sorts of useless delay messages on our boards.

If that scenario is representative of what the future of ATC will be like, how is that not complete collapse?

Well, one basic consideration is this: airplanes on the ground are safe. As long as someone has the balls to keep 'em on the deck when there's no where to put 'em, we'll be OK. But, and this is a big but, in a system that's being run "as a business" providing service to "customers", there is increasing pressure to get airplanes in the air. Couple many of the things that alone aren't that big a deal, like:

1. Eliminating Center Weather Service Units
2. Inadequate training of controllers regarding convective weather
3. CONUS centers dependent on a flight data system (URET) that has no effective backup
4. FAA's new fix-on-fail "no preventive maintenance" scheme for many systems

Together with a few overly-weary, underexperienced controllers in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I think it's easy to see the potential for disaster in convective weather is being steadily increased. If ATC bows to the pressure, puts too many airplanes in the air, into the wrong place, and there's a ATC system failure of some sort, and the controller(s) on the spot are not that experienced, and running on empty besides... there are too many possibilities, none of them good. Again, it's not one major defect that alone can be fixed, it's the erosion of the margin of safety.

Any acccident is the result of a chain of events. Break the chain, and disaster is averted. One of the FAA's fairly decent refresher training presentations a couple of years ago was actually called "Breaking the Chain", demonstrating how one of any number of people, acting appropriately, could have stopped a particularly nasty ATC incident. I wish the FAA would today take their own advice, and break this chain. I don't think they will; the FAA is not called the "Tombstone Agency" for nothing.

 

[iflyjets4food]

What makes you think there will be enough newhires to do anything practical?

They are back to offering the test as a method of getting an ATC job. This means you don't even have to pay to go through the CTI program. Any old Joe can apply to take the test. There are plenty of folks who would love to make $30,000+ in this country who have no other chance to do so.

 

[BRIGADEAVIATOR]

I'm pretty disappointed with the whole situation. After watching all the CNN interviews with Blakey and Carr, Blakey came across to me as shady, and one sided. From what i understand, there will be pay freezes for those already working and new hires are screwed. Doing such a hard and stressful job, knowing you have no chance of getting a pay raise, and if your a new hire forget it. Like mentioned earlier, if you can make more pumping jet fuel, just disappointing.

 

[atcloser]

Together with a few overly-weary, underexperienced controllers in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I think it's easy to see the potential for disaster in convective weather is being steadily increased.

Let the flaming begin but I resent that statement. I've been with the FAA for only 4 years now, and was lucky enough to finish CTI, and get picked up 2 months after graduation back in 2002. After a lot of hard work and a complete personality makeover, I made CPC at NY TRACON.

The new bodies in the FAA may be underexperienced in terms of time, but from what I have seen, its those new bodies who are pushing the traffic, not going into holds, and are constantly thrown into the fire day after day. SOME of the more "seasoned" controllers appear to go into a hold when one little thing goes wrong, or put way too many miles between airplanes, and work long, stretched out finals at 160 knots. Management has now put the "new guys" into the fire, meaning, I have more time working final vector than most people in the sector--spacing is always good, nobody is slowed down too much, none of the feeders go into a hold. During SWAP and convective weather, us newbies are also constatly left on position for 2 hours and things generally run smoothly. This is just an observation and does not apply to everyone.

 

[Hold West]

Let the flaming begin but I resent that statement. I've been with the FAA for only 4 years now, and was lucky enough to finish CTI, and get picked up 2 months after graduation back in 2002. After a lot of hard work and a complete personality makeover, I made CPC at NY TRACON.

Bravo to you for checking out in one of the more difficult facilities in the world! No flaming is required. It's a simple fact though that I have more tricks up my sleeve after 22 years (or maybe just more appreciation for my weaknesses) than the average joe with 4 years in the agency. We play a safety game here, not "Top Gun". When things are going rotten, it's not how tight you can pack 'em, it's how well you can preserve the ever-thinning margin of safety and operate within the system that counts.

Keep up the good work back east and don't let the FAA lies grind you down!

 

[81Horse]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Just sayin'.

 

[Hold West]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Just sayin'.

You among all of us have a right to say that, Horse!

 

[Big Beer Belly]

It's a simple fact though that I have more tricks up my sleeve after 22 years (or maybe just more appreciation for my weaknesses) than the average joe with 4 years in the agency.

Tricks? Who are you kidding? All you old head socal dorks know is to "SPIN 'EM" when more than one enters your sector at the same time. Try doing your job. Hold, you sound like one of the weakest of the weak tits out west.

You want competent air traffic control? Study under the Germans. Those guys are top-notch.

Good luck on your Wal Mart Greeter job there, Hold. Buh-bye.

BBB

 

[sleddriver71]

Tricks? Who are you kidding? All you old head socal dorks know is to "SPIN 'EM" when more than one enters your sector at the same time. Try doing your job. Hold, you sound like one of the weakest of the weak tits out west.

You want competent air traffic control? Study under the Germans. Those guys are top-notch.

Good luck on your Wal Mart Greeter job there, Hold. Buh-bye.

BBB

Do you ever have anything good to say? What's your issue with Hold? Get over yourself BBB.

 

[charter dog]

3. CONUS centers dependent on a flight data system (URET) that has no effective backup

Hey Hold West, those words could have come right from the mouth of Don Brown! (Soon to retire ZTL NATCA safety rep, AvWeb columnist and all around good guy) He fears that controllers will lose the ability to "see" the air traffic picture and be helpless without URET. (no backup plan) Besides, he loves his strips! I liken this to a pilot relying totally on a single GPS with no charts or ground based NAVAIDs. Works OK 'til something unusual happens. I'm no controller, but I know I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket. No system is so reliable that it requires no redundancy in the aviation business, no matter what any manufacturer or senior official with an agenda might say to the contrary.

I feel sorry to see so many jobs in the technical/operational segment of the aviation industry suffering such a loss of career earning potential. People who know how to do things are losing their value. Future pilots, controllers, mechanics and other technical professionals will not enjoy the same stability and standard of living as the retiring generation until or unless the current trend is arrested and reversed. Seems to be the end of an era unless things change. Those new controllers will not stay when their efforts don't pay off enough to live indoors. Pilots may be a different matter.

I have no idea what that guy's gripe with SOCAL could be. I've never done a hold in SOCAL airspace since it opened for business! ZLA might make SOCAL meter our releases from VNY and BUR for in trail spacing over PMD or GMN sometimes, but in the air, speed control, vertical separation and vectors seem to negate the need for holding. VNY, BUR and even LAX are about the easiest busy airspace to fly in anywhere. I guess you can't please everyone!

Best,

 

[81Horse]

Big Bitter Bloviator came back? Still looking for a hug, BBB?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

No mass resignations - but a whole lot of retirements over the next three years or so. Mine included.

RETIRE ALREADY! Buh-bye.

Hold, you're sooooooooooooooo DRAMATIC!! :crying:


BBB

 

[unreal]

RETIRE ALREADY! Buh-bye.

Hold, you're sooooooooooooooo DRAMATIC!! :crying:


BBB

^ I vote someone just bans this guy.