HR5449 (ATC contract)

[atcloser]

Together with a few overly-weary, underexperienced controllers in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I think it's easy to see the potential for disaster in convective weather is being steadily increased.

Let the flaming begin but I resent that statement. I've been with the FAA for only 4 years now, and was lucky enough to finish CTI, and get picked up 2 months after graduation back in 2002. After a lot of hard work and a complete personality makeover, I made CPC at NY TRACON.

The new bodies in the FAA may be underexperienced in terms of time, but from what I have seen, its those new bodies who are pushing the traffic, not going into holds, and are constantly thrown into the fire day after day. SOME of the more "seasoned" controllers appear to go into a hold when one little thing goes wrong, or put way too many miles between airplanes, and work long, stretched out finals at 160 knots. Management has now put the "new guys" into the fire, meaning, I have more time working final vector than most people in the sector--spacing is always good, nobody is slowed down too much, none of the feeders go into a hold. During SWAP and convective weather, us newbies are also constatly left on position for 2 hours and things generally run smoothly. This is just an observation and does not apply to everyone.

 

[Hold West]

Let the flaming begin but I resent that statement. I've been with the FAA for only 4 years now, and was lucky enough to finish CTI, and get picked up 2 months after graduation back in 2002. After a lot of hard work and a complete personality makeover, I made CPC at NY TRACON.

Bravo to you for checking out in one of the more difficult facilities in the world! No flaming is required. It's a simple fact though that I have more tricks up my sleeve after 22 years (or maybe just more appreciation for my weaknesses) than the average joe with 4 years in the agency. We play a safety game here, not "Top Gun". When things are going rotten, it's not how tight you can pack 'em, it's how well you can preserve the ever-thinning margin of safety and operate within the system that counts.

Keep up the good work back east and don't let the FAA lies grind you down!

 

[81Horse]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Just sayin'.

 

[Hold West]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Just sayin'.

You among all of us have a right to say that, Horse!

 

[Big Beer Belly]

It's a simple fact though that I have more tricks up my sleeve after 22 years (or maybe just more appreciation for my weaknesses) than the average joe with 4 years in the agency.

Tricks? Who are you kidding? All you old head socal dorks know is to "SPIN 'EM" when more than one enters your sector at the same time. Try doing your job. Hold, you sound like one of the weakest of the weak tits out west.

You want competent air traffic control? Study under the Germans. Those guys are top-notch.

Good luck on your Wal Mart Greeter job there, Hold. Buh-bye.

BBB

 

[sleddriver71]

Tricks? Who are you kidding? All you old head socal dorks know is to "SPIN 'EM" when more than one enters your sector at the same time. Try doing your job. Hold, you sound like one of the weakest of the weak tits out west.

You want competent air traffic control? Study under the Germans. Those guys are top-notch.

Good luck on your Wal Mart Greeter job there, Hold. Buh-bye.

BBB

Do you ever have anything good to say? What's your issue with Hold? Get over yourself BBB.

 

[charter dog]

3. CONUS centers dependent on a flight data system (URET) that has no effective backup

Hey Hold West, those words could have come right from the mouth of Don Brown! (Soon to retire ZTL NATCA safety rep, AvWeb columnist and all around good guy) He fears that controllers will lose the ability to "see" the air traffic picture and be helpless without URET. (no backup plan) Besides, he loves his strips! I liken this to a pilot relying totally on a single GPS with no charts or ground based NAVAIDs. Works OK 'til something unusual happens. I'm no controller, but I know I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket. No system is so reliable that it requires no redundancy in the aviation business, no matter what any manufacturer or senior official with an agenda might say to the contrary.

I feel sorry to see so many jobs in the technical/operational segment of the aviation industry suffering such a loss of career earning potential. People who know how to do things are losing their value. Future pilots, controllers, mechanics and other technical professionals will not enjoy the same stability and standard of living as the retiring generation until or unless the current trend is arrested and reversed. Seems to be the end of an era unless things change. Those new controllers will not stay when their efforts don't pay off enough to live indoors. Pilots may be a different matter.

I have no idea what that guy's gripe with SOCAL could be. I've never done a hold in SOCAL airspace since it opened for business! ZLA might make SOCAL meter our releases from VNY and BUR for in trail spacing over PMD or GMN sometimes, but in the air, speed control, vertical separation and vectors seem to negate the need for holding. VNY, BUR and even LAX are about the easiest busy airspace to fly in anywhere. I guess you can't please everyone!

Best,

 

[81Horse]

Big Bitter Bloviator came back? Still looking for a hug, BBB?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

No mass resignations - but a whole lot of retirements over the next three years or so. Mine included.

RETIRE ALREADY! Buh-bye.

Hold, you're sooooooooooooooo DRAMATIC!! :crying:


BBB

 

[unreal]

RETIRE ALREADY! Buh-bye.

Hold, you're sooooooooooooooo DRAMATIC!! :crying:


BBB

^ I vote someone just bans this guy.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

This whole thread is one BIG "poor me" pity party by a group of people with an entitlement mentality and egos to match. Guess what ... welcome to the modern world. You don't hear doctors whining like you ATC crybabies about their salaries being cut and their practices destroyed [by HMO's.]

Take a look around and take off your elitist glasses and you'll see plenty of other people being squeezed... hmmm the auto industry comes to mind as a glaring example. What makes you feel so SPECIAL that you should be immune to the economic reality that affects EVERYONE ELSE?

BBB

PS Unreal ... trying growing up. If you don't like what I have to say you can very simply NOT READ what I write. OMG... what a grown up concept! OR ... you can run to momma's tit for support and suckle it. :laugh:

Moderator reviewed.

 

[unreal]

PS Unreal ... trying growing up. If you don't like what I have to say you can very simply NOT READ what I write. OMG... what a grown up concept! OR ... you can run to momma's tit for support and suckle it. :laugh:

If you think that you can talk to people this way and then point fingers about inflated senses of entitlement, then you're the biggest hypocrite on this board. Yours is nothing beyond a personal attack, and I hope you're outed for it.

 

[smellthejeta]

This whole thread is one BIG "poor me" pity party by a group of people with an entitlement mentality and egos to match. Guess what ... welcome to the modern world. You don't hear doctors whining like you ATC crybabies about their salaries being cut and their practices destroyed [by HMO's.]

Take a look around and take off your elitist glasses and you'll see plenty of other people being squeezed... hmmm the auto industry comes to mind as a glaring example. What makes you feel so SPECIAL that you should be immune to the economic reality that affects EVERYONE ELSE?

BBB

PS Unreal ... trying growing up. If you don't like what I have to say you can very simply NOT READ what I write. OMG... what a grown up concept! OR ... you can run to momma's tit for support and suckle it. :laugh:

Dang. Someobody got bent over REAL hard by the bubba known as his major airline employer and is out to dis everyone in his path. I don't care what it says he is in his profile -- I tried to do the USAF flying thing, and would have been VERY happy with it.

P.S. I don't think Hold is anywhere near SoCAL. My guess is probably MSP TRACON/TWR or ZMP.

 

[smellthejeta]

There will be those who want the job at all cost - there are those who've done the ATC as a major, and don't have anything else going. Think of all the folks signing up for PFT to get a job at a regional airline paying a pittance. There will be plenty of people willing to take the job.

I'm not so sure. Back before the big hiring crunch was publicized, I saw a GAO report on the number of students in the CTI programs. There weren't that many. My school, at the time, was fourth largest in terms of graduates, and we had a whopping 40 or so every year. Riddle, UND, and Purdue I think were the power houses. IIRC, there were 800 graduates per year collectively amongst all 13 programs and a bunch were already operating at capacity, very hesitant to expand their programs until they knew jobs would actually be available. My point is that the agency was not bursting at the seams with potential new hires. Combine that with the fact that when a job offer has been extended (I mean, the candidate has been "selected") it still takes awhile for them to get to the facility. I was "selected" in Oct '05, and I haven't gone anywhere or heard anything since then... other than that the FBI is extremely backlogged with clearance investigations. So, how fast are these graduates getting to the facilities? My May '05 grads that designated the West-Pac region for hire haven't even been selected.

The community colleges are your largest source of "majors" who don't have anything else going. I was one of those people, and went to school with a few. Those programs aren't that large. Even then, I went to school with a bunch of 18 to 20 year olds who can move on to other things.

As far as the four year schools goes, I doubt very few people did ATC as a sole major. You'd have to be stupid. In the current hiring climate, the FAA has been dragging their feet hiring graduates, and they won't even consider you for hire until you graduate. It has been entirely possible that you wait for two years from graduation, at the very least. Don't forget the "applications for waiver" or whatever that were put out in Dec '04 for pool extensions -- meaning people have been waiting for more than two years for jobs.

Graduation is also no guarantee of a job. Do you honestly think that all of these potential hires were just sitting around at home working at McD's until the FAA made up their mind? I sure hope these aren't the people who will be guiding our skies in the next few years.

As far as PFT goes -- everybody I know that is a pilot and an ATC candidate says that they'll fly airplanes for crappy pay long before they push tin for crappy pay. Meaning, we have a bunch of crappy paid pilots and no ATC guys.

My comment about the fragility of the system is that it already is at its breaking point. Push it any further, and it's going to break.

P.S. Just for BBB's amusement, I ain't whining. I already passed on a flying career because of the state of the industry, and if this falls through, I have some VERY promising back up plans.

 

[smellthejeta]

They are back to offering the test as a method of getting an ATC job. This means you don't even have to pay to go through the CTI program. Any old Joe can apply to take the test. There are plenty of folks who would love to make $30,000+ in this country who have no other chance to do so.

What do you mean "back to?" I know specific centers were offered the test to off of the street candidates, but that was far from a well implemented plan and was a one shot deal at most of those places. There are currently no vacancies posted on the FAA website for ATC for non-military/non-federal employees.

IOW, if you're a random joe blow off the street, show me how he can take the test and get hired.

 

[J.C.Airborne]

This whole thread is one BIG "poor me" pity party by a group of people with an entitlement mentality and egos to match. Guess what ... welcome to the modern world. You don't hear doctors whining like you ATC crybabies about their salaries being cut and their practices destroyed [by HMO's.]

Take a look around and take off your elitist glasses and you'll see plenty of other people being squeezed... hmmm the auto industry comes to mind as a glaring example. What makes you feel so SPECIAL that you should be immune to the economic reality that affects EVERYONE ELSE?

BBB

PS Unreal ... trying growing up. If you don't like what I have to say you can very simply NOT READ what I write. OMG... what a grown up concept! OR ... you can run to momma's tit for support and suckle it. :laugh:

Moderator reviewed.

Actually i have heard alot of doctors complaining about the exact problem you have described in addition to the high cost of mal practice insurance. Additionally, if the american auto industry is failing its because americans make bad expensive cars. Make cheap good cars (Honda) and the industry will boom. Your analogies suck...come back when you have some good ones.

 

[unreal]

P.S. I don't think Hold is anywhere near SoCAL. My guess is probably MSP TRACON/TWR or ZMP.

If Hold West is who I think he is, he's about 2500 miles to the west of Socal...

 

[Hold West]

I'm not so sure. Back before the big hiring crunch was publicized, I saw a GAO report on the number of students in the CTI programs. There weren't that many.

Everything you say has validity - I have no hard numbers on how many folks are out there on the waiting lists. Seems to be a back up now of people who graduated three years ago or more waiting for hire, or at least that's the impression I get from reading atccti.com and a few other things.

I particularly like your observation that we'll end up with a "bunch of crappy paid pilots and no ATC guys". It's entirely possible that you may correct and the FAA's main assumptions in their "plan" might just blow up in their face. It's a huge experiment they've undertaken, and the outcome is pretty murky. We're all in for an interesting ride.

 

[Hold West]

Dang. Someobody got bent over REAL hard by the bubba known as his major airline employer and is out to dis everyone in his path. I don't care what it says he is in his profile -- I tried to do the USAF flying thing, and would have been VERY happy with it.

P.S. I don't think Hold is anywhere near SoCAL. My guess is probably MSP TRACON/TWR or ZMP.

ZMP is where I started many years ago. I currently reside about 2,400 nm SW of SOCAL.

 

[smellthejeta]

Everything you say has validity - I have no hard numbers on how many folks are out there on the waiting lists. Seems to be a back up now of people who graduated three years ago or more waiting for hire, or at least that's the impression I get from reading atccti.com and a few other things.

There definitely is a backlog list. I have to wonder if it looks like a furlough list, you know, where half of the people will bypass their recall. For me, even if I have second thoughts on this job, I'd be stupid to take my name off of the list before they call me.

I particularly like your observation that we'll end up with a "bunch of crappy paid pilots and no ATC guys". It's entirely possible that you may correct and the FAA's main assumptions in their "plan" might just blow up in their face. It's a huge experiment they've undertaken, and the outcome is pretty murky. We're all in for an interesting ride.

I wish I were spouting union rhetoric, but the truth is, the FAA has no leverage for the long haul. You guys that are two years away from a pension already have a pretty respectable high-three locked in, and will do absolutely anything to keep it. The new guys just aren't on the property yet, Like I said earlier, those of us in the pipeline have to be working on a plan B.

I was discussing the matter with a pilot, and he mentioned something about getting ALPA involved. I told him ALPA could hardly take of their own. I didn't mean that as an insult it was a matter of reality at places like UAL.

The FAA can play with fire all they want, it won't be the controllers getting burn.