How To Pre-flight A Flops B.j.

[Praetorian]

It is no secret how hard they avoid properly fixing their airplanes and that the bottom line in their operation is the bottom line, and NOT doing maintenance properly. They have a BAD reputation amongst professional pilots who know what it means to have integrity and do things right.

This is pure BS. It might have been true once upon a time, but not since about a year after the union was voted in.

If this is your perception and you work at Flight Options, it is now your job to change this. Now that we have a contract there is no excuse not to see to it personally that our aircraft are maintained properly. I'm not talking about vindictiveness, but you now have contractually protected professional responsibilities.

This is also why I will never put my family in the back of a plane flown by non-union pilots. Without a just-cause provision, who knows what they've been pressured into doing.

 

[B19 Flyer]

think about it.

If I always give you the answers, you'll never learn anything.

Broke, you have no answers. Your union always fought your battles for you and because of that, your career was always what your union made you do and you blindly accepted what the contract required. You were always at the mercy of the contract, your union dues and your union leaders. You have no thoughts of your own and your posts have consistently proved that.

Those of us working non-union have chosen to make our own decisions about our careers. We don't need no stinkin' unions to guide our careers.

 

[B19 Flyer]

ok ok....now i just feel sorry for you.

it means, trying to pay a crap wage won't get you a professional pilot. Quite the opposite in fact. You get what you pay for.

Broke, you just spit on the face of every professional pilot in the industry. A decent wage and lifestyle is up to the individual, not the union. Pilots and employees choosing to keep a union off the property don't want the BS that you accept as normal. It's a choice. What you consider a "sacrifice" in wages is considered a benefit for the freedom of living union free. What you consider a "crap" wage might be perfectly fine for somebody else and in no way compromises the skill of the pilot because they choose to be union-free.

 

[wacoflyr]

This is also why I will never put my family in the back of a plane flown by non-union pilots. Without a just-cause provision, who knows what they've been pressured into doing.

Hey, thanks for the slap. Please may I have another? I don't belong to a union. I would be happy to tell you to your face that any plane I fly not only meets the letter of the law, but it also contains a content, rested, competent pilot who is determined to come home to his family at the end of the week. Have I ever been pressured? Yes, although not with my present employer. Did I yield? Of course not. I told him I was PIC, and that was the end of the story. I don't need a union to back me up. Just what kind of spine are you using there? Clearly it's not your own.

I respect my fellow pilots who are unionized. I understand that management brought it on. Please respect those of us who work for companies that avoided unions by treating us like humans. Oh, and B19, you have still not learned to see both sides of an argument. That's ok, my eight year old daughter is working on the same issue.

 

[brokeflyer]

Broke, you just spit on the face of every professional pilot in the industry. A decent wage and lifestyle is up to the individual, not the union. Pilots and employees choosing to keep a union off the property don't want the BS that you accept as normal. It's a choice. What you consider a "sacrifice" in wages is considered a benefit for the freedom of living union free. What you consider a "crap" wage might be perfectly fine for somebody else and in no way compromises the skill of the pilot because they choose to be union-free.

well no one really cares what you think. if you weren't such an azz hole about it, im sure people would listen to you, even if it was to disagree. Attitude goes miles in this business and your's is very poor.

I find it very poor taste to negatively comment about anything I say, after all, i was a check airman on the space shuttle and wrote part 91k.

i accept your surrender and your apology.

 

[dime line]

Broke, you have no answers.

Oh and I see that you have all the answers.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Oh and I see that you have all the answers.

I don't have the answers. All I have is ongoing examples of how unions have continually failed their brethren by making promises they couldn't keep.

 

[B19 Flyer]

well no one really cares what you think. if you weren't such an azz hole about it, im sure people would listen to you, even if it was to disagree. Attitude goes miles in this business and your's is very poor.

I find it very poor taste to negatively comment about anything I say, after all, i was a check airman on the space shuttle and wrote part 91k.

i accept your surrender and your apology.

I don't have a poor attitude Broke, and my response to your surrender demand is "NUTS". :nuts: (right out of the WWII history books)

I'm not the one telling other people that what you consider a crap wage will get them a substandard pilot.

I'm saying that it doesn't take a large paycheck to be a good pilot, nor does it take a union.


That isn't a bad attitude, it's an honest attitude that you just don't seem to get. Oh, and while I'm at it... I did work with real space shuttle training personnel, and they were all about being professional. They made their career choices because they did what they wanted to do, not because it paid alot. As far as 91K, I was part of the work group, I never said I wrote it like you have, but I was honestly involved.

Oh, and union pilots DO care what you say, it's a reflection on the union way of thinking. Real people who love the industry don't because they've seen the damage that unions have done.

 

[brokeflyer]

ok, i'm the guy writing the procedures for the first mars landing. And I designed the GPS system. What else you got?

take note all, this is the best part.

It's so funny watching you get upset about all this.

If you dont like unions, only YOU can change it. Not me.

think about it.

 

[skanza]

And that is YOUR opinion. You are free to have it. Personally, I feel the operation at Flops should be stalled not for reasons of labor woes, but to get them to start fixing their airplanes correctly. Go ahead, this won't get you into any trouble - I dare ya... It is no secret how hard they avoid properly fixing their airplanes and that the bottom line in their operation is the bottom line, and NOT doing maintenance properly. You need to provide specific examples of this in order to make such an intense statement. Otherwise, it just shows how little you know about the mx performed on our airplanes. They have a BAD reputation amongst professional pilots who know what it means to have integrity and do things right. Oh riiigggght, and grounding an airplane to make a point about your dissatisfaction with the mx performed shows much more integrity and professionalism than going about it through the proper channels. Especially when you approach an airplane on day 1 with the intent if seeing how you can ground it because you're "upset" instead of intending to fly it safely like you were hired to do....

I wish them the best with their new contract and hope the pilots and company will reap many rewards going forward.

fly safe

 

[B19 Flyer]

ok, i'm the guy writing the procedures for the first mars landing. And I designed the GPS system. What else you got?

take note all, this is the best part.

It's so funny watching you get upset about all this.

If you dont like unions, only YOU can change it. Not me.

think about it.

I just noted you are retired NWA. That explains the above attitude which is the exact the reason NWA isn't around anymore. Being highly unionized sure as hell didn't help NWA did they? Maybe now the remaining NWA employees will understand what it's like to not have their careers attached to a contract and the associated turmoil as each attempt is overwhelmingly voted down. There is a reason why Delta was always the best in the industry for the entire work force, and that was because they were, are and will be the least unionized.

 

[brokeflyer]

the important word there is "retired"

 

[Praetorian]

Hey, thanks for the slap. Please may I have another? I don't belong to a union. I would be happy to tell you to your face that any plane I fly not only meets the letter of the law, but it also contains a content, rested, competent pilot who is determined to come home to his family at the end of the week. Have I ever been pressured? Yes, although not with my present employer. Did I yield? Of course not. I told him I was PIC, and that was the end of the story. I don't need a union to back me up. Just what kind of spine are you using there? Clearly it's not your own.

I respect my fellow pilots who are unionized. I understand that management brought it on. Please respect those of us who work for companies that avoided unions by treating us like humans. Oh, and B19, you have still not learned to see both sides of an argument. That's ok, my eight year old daughter is working on the same issue.

I’m glad to hear that you follow the FAR’s. The problem is that for every principled pilot such as you at a non-union carrier, there are two others who will understandably cave into management’s pressure tactics.

I’ve seen it too many times over the years. We’ve all heard the standard lines. “Maybe you are not cut out for this type of flying.” “Well, I’m going to have to take this one up to ‘upper management’, are you sure you can’t find a way to get this trip done?” I always told them to do what they had to do, but I’ve had buddies who folded. You get a few beers into a lot of non-union pilots and they will admit as much.


So, my comment wasn’t personal, I’m confident there are many fine pilots working at non-union companies, but in this economy I am also confident many are willing to compromise their principals to save their jobs and protect their families.

With all due respect, since 95% of all commercial pilots unionized, it’s not too difficult to protect my family from this dynamic.

 

[wacoflyr]

With all due respect, since 95% of all commercial pilots unionized, it’s not too difficult to protect my family from this dynamic.

With all due respect, I've worked for a union carrier. I've seen PIC's show up at the last minute with no thought to the weather. I've seen pilots carried by their FO's who couldn't put a flight plan into an FMS to save their lives. I've seen guys propped up by unions far, far too long, who should have either been retrained, or retired. I couldn't wait to leave that job for this, where the pilots are competent, and completely in command of their aircraft, ahead of management.

Furthermore, the kind of fly-by-night pilots you are refering to are equally present in UNION carriers. Their excuse becomes that they want to get home, get to the hotel, get finished with the day. Think that doesn't happen at UNION carriers? Are you kidding me? Just how out to lunch are you?

Now, I don't think for one second that this is going on at Netjets, or will happen at Flops. But if you are silly enough to think that all union pilots are therefore competent, then you maybe should worry a little more about your family, and a little less about my non-union carrier. With all due respect.

By the way, do you know how many hours are in that right front seat? At my UNION carrier, it was as little as 250. My sim partner didn't know what the landing zone was. The next week, he was a UNION pilot.

 

[Praetorian]

With all due respect, I've worked for a union carrier. I've seen PIC's show up at the last minute with no thought to the weather. I've seen pilots carried by their FO's who couldn't put a flight plan into an FMS to save their lives. I've seen guys propped up by unions far, far too long, who should have either been retrained, or retired. I couldn't wait to leave that job for this, where the pilots are competent, and completely in command of their aircraft, ahead of management.

Furthermore, the kind of fly-by-night pilots you are refering to are equally present in UNION carriers. Their excuse becomes that they want to get home, get to the hotel, get finished with the day. Think that doesn't happen at UNION carriers? Are you kidding me? Just how out to lunch are you?

Now, I don't think for one second that this is going on at Netjets, or will happen at Flops. But if you are silly enough to think that all union pilots are therefore competent, then you maybe should worry a little more about your family, and a little less about my non-union carrier. With all due respect.

By the way, do you know how many hours are in that right front seat? At my UNION carrier, it was as little as 250. My sim partner didn't know what the landing zone was. The next week, he was a UNION pilot.

Is it really necessary to be that sarcastic? At any rate, issues related to some pilots performance and/or lack of experience are universal. Bringing these things into an argument about the relative safety of union verses non-union airlines is a red herring, because the presence, or not, of a union on the property has no bearing on their frequency.

Also you are wrong about unions “propping up” pilots. Most union contracts I’m familiar with lay out a specific program for retraining and even terminating pilots who cannot pass company training events. I think we should focus on the real issue, job security. Non-union pilots have no contractually provided for job security, no grievance/system board. Pilots at non-union companies can be unilaterally fired without appeal and because of this some will sometimes be afraid to call fatigue when tired, write up aircraft with mx issues, and will sometimes even bust the regs. to keep themselves off management’s radar.

What particularly amazes me is how myopic some pilots become. Here you are an at will employee, who can literally be legally fired for any reason at all, good, bad, or nonexistent, but because you feel some level of omnipotence as “the PIC” you truly believe your somehow special. I guess it’s a necessary defense mechanism in our line of work. But you (we all) need to get a grip, we aren’t. What we should understand, is that to our management we a simply labor, no different than the secretary who answers the phone in the office, or the janitor who cleans the restrooms at night. Without a contract you are truly and completely venerable to the whims of your management and there is nothing you will be able to do if they decide to draw a bead on you.

I wonder if you’ve really devoted any real thought to this, or have just decided to become offended at me because your current employer is non-union?

 

[wacoflyr]

You have a point. I apologize for my atittude. I believe that if management is fair then working without a union is better than working with one. However, it is true That most companies have got what they deserve.

 

[WheresRocky]

Oh mannn

Don't forget about the foil coated fire retardent blankets in the main landing gear wells. Torn, punctured or missing the foil coating? No go according to QA. (Also the "Discrepancy du jour" according to MX control.)

LMAO!

They have no idea what is about to hit them.....:smash:

Maybe you guys should start a new thread:

How to preflight a FLOPS Citation.

 

[gutshotdraw]

"Holy thread resurrection, Batman!"

 

[Safetycheck]

This might come in handy

Now that IBT has cut off the 85 recalls - (cough cough) - maybe this thread will become relevant again.

How about the Nextjunk 400, any updates to the list?

 

[acaTerry]

Oh yeah, and make sure to do the ENTIRE anti-ice check prior to takeoff (assuming you haven't grounded it yet) as we're getting into icing season. . .

a.k.a. h-stb fail season

PAY ATTENTION TO THIS GUY'S POST ABOVE. I flew the mighty beechjet for several years. I think there's nary a beechjet pilot out there that has not had a tail stall at some point if they did any amount of winter flying. Believe me, it changes your life and the way you operate from that day on. From the tiniest chip on the horn, to doing a full test, , to flying under 160 kts, to exactly how long you'll fly with anything more than 10 degrees of flap. That thing is a whistling sh1t can of death and hurrying through an ice test can baptize you. One of my buddies had 2 tail stalls on one approach. Even under ideal conditions that beechjet is a nonachiever. Put in icing conditions and you better be good.