How to get the union on property!

[FRACTRASH]

It's simple, life is good at CS, as much as it pisses people off. We have a good compensation package and a great working relationship with our management. Why would we want to throw that in the toilet and vote in the old 1108. What a joke. I don't know Bogart, but I think we're dealing with some inexperienced, childish pilots here. All they do is name call in order to get their point across. I can't put it any simpler then that. We are not working for a sweatshop operation here.

 

[Spackler]

It's simple, life is good at CS, as much as it pisses people off. We have a good compensation package and a great working relationship with our management. Why would we want to throw that in the toilet and vote in the old 1108.

Give it time. Things were good at RTA & Options at one point too. It all means nothing without a contract. I'll tell you why you would want the 1108, to solidify that compensation package and other QOL items that make you happy to work at CS.

I would be willing to bet that in a couple years you will wake up one day and realise that things are not so peachy for you anymore. Management WILL take things away, one by one so it isn't all that noticeable at first.

But I congratulate you on your raise and I HOPE that you can hold on to it. Thing is that is all you really have...HOPE.

 

[XPGuy]

Fractrash -

No one's knocking CS's raise you got. Look again, you will find not a single post knocking it. However, are you so shallow-brained as to realize what it is you do NOT have? Have you bothered to read the Net Jets ratified contract? You may have gotten their pay, but that's all you got. You're a long ways away from "matching" Net Jets.

You may be right - the relationship with CS and its pilots may be exstatic. I know it was at RTA and Flight Options at one time, too. Things change. With no contract, unfortunately, life could change at CS with the stroke of a pen by your CEO. It happens to all of us, at some point. I hope your company never gets there, I really do.

It is unfortunate that companies manage their employees so poorly that it results in unions. That is the sole reason unions exist, is poor management. If it weren't for poor management, a union would never get voted in, that is a simple fact, and even anti-union web sites state that.

Here's to hoping Citation Shares never needs a union... but considering they are just as vulnerable to get sold as everyone else, the need will always be there, the pilots are just gambling that that number will never roll out on the dice.

 

[Guitar rocker]

It's simple, life is good at CS, as much as it pisses people off. We have a good compensation package and a great working relationship with our management. Why would we want to throw that in the toilet and vote in the old 1108. What a joke. I don't know Bogart, but I think we're dealing with some inexperienced, childish pilots here. All they do is name call in order to get their point across. I can't put it any simpler then that. We are not working for a sweatshop operation here.

Trash, can you do me one favor??? I wanted to enhance and perfect your vocabulary somewhat and familiarize you with some words/definitions that you are quite unaware of. Sit down with Bogart and take out Websters dictionary and look up the definition of the following words which you obviously are not familiar with:

1. Thanks/ thankful/refer to the art of being thankful (may need counseling)
2. Grateful/ refer to the art of being grateful (may need counseling)
3. Appreciative/to appreciate
4. Professional/professionalism
5. Respect
6. Courtesy
7. Dignity
8. Mature/maturity (act of being a mature adult....more counseling)
9. Fact/facts/factual

There are a few terms which you are too familiar with and we need for you to leave behind and forget....they are as follows:

1. Arrogance/arrogant
2. Disrespect/disrespectful
3. Child/childish

Thanks Trash.

 

[Guitar rocker]

It's simple, life is good at CS, as much as it pisses people off. We have a good compensation package and a great working relationship with our management. Why would we want to throw that in the toilet and vote in the old 1108. What a joke. I don't know Bogart, but I think we're dealing with some inexperienced, childish pilots here. All they do is name call in order to get their point across. I can't put it any simpler then that. We are not working for a sweatshop operation here.

Trash, really, you are the only one that has implied that we are a "sweatshop operation." Explain what you mean by that???? We both have owners and fly them from point A to B, right??? Seeing that we conduct business in the same manner, how does that make us a "sweatshop operation?"

 

[Guitar rocker]

Rocker, I hate to admit it but I'm starting to enjoy talking to you! The merit system was put in place to make us different from a total seniority based system. Seniority still has alot to do with upgrades. I upgraded 1 month after the class a month prior to me upgraded. Are there some that are "delayed" for a month or so, sure, but they really had to do something wrong along the way. We are eveluated and maybe those persons didn't show they had what it took to be a PIC at that time. You know as well as I that we conduct a different type of flying with all the different destinations and small airports we go to. I'm sure as we grow larger, we'll look into different ways to evaluate our peers. I still think it's for the betterment of CS.

Bogart, let me ask you this...........at CS , is it possible to upgrade, even though there are those who are more senior than you and awaiting an upgrade as well??? Such being the case, doesnt that spark some animosity from those in line to upgrade and who are senior to a junior "go the extra mile" guy??? How many people are involved in the decision whether someone upgrades??? What if one of those people consistently shoots down an FO who bids captain becuase of a previous run in???? I am only curious. As you know, our system is simple.........bid it, hold it, get it and the rest is up to you.

 

[CaptSeth]

If I smoke major pole at CS, will I upgrade faster?

 

[Guitar rocker]

If I smoke major pole at CS, will I upgrade faster?

Baaaaa baaaaa baaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Too funny!!!!

 

[finnjl]

I worked at union airlines and non-union airlines and much to the dismay of the union folks the working conditions at the airline that was not unionized was much better.

 

[XPGuy]

Well, don't be bashful, speak up. What airlines are you referring to?


Better yet, let's just consider. This is the fractionals forum. Net Jets has by far the best working conditions of all the fractionals and is by far the best-paid... and the reason why is because of Local 1108. Their contract has forced the rest of the fractionals to step up and try to match them, but no one's come close.

 

[Hawkered]

One of those pay for training outfits that are little more than day care centers for spoilt rich kids. That's the only non-unionised "airline". One of them is run by a bunch of Eastern Scabs.

 

[netjetwife]

Sweatshop? NJA? How did I miss that?! Here I was thinking it was pilots at a NON-union company working more days than the NJ pilots. Do feel free to explain it to me Trash. I promise to pay close attention... While you're at it, could you go over the grievance system with me, because I could have sworn that I heard lots of NJ pilots made a big chunk of money standing up for their rights. I'm sooo confused ...??...I know my husband told me that we got over $1000 from the settlement.

You are so right, Trash. I really must find out how that could have happened in a sweatshop. Does this mean I have to change my name? Sweatshopwife? Ohhh, say it isn't so, Trash! It doesn't sound nearly as good and besides I don't have a t-shirt to match that name.
NJW/SSW

PS Fractrash, should you find this post over the top, bring your own back to earth and I promise to stick to reality myself.

 

[Guitar rocker]

One of those pay for training outfits that are little more than day care centers for spoilt rich kids. That's the only non-unionised "airline". One of them is run by a bunch of Eastern Scabs.

I couldnt agree more!

 

[Humphreybogart]

It is unfortunate that companies manage their employees so poorly that it results in unions. That is the sole reason unions exist, is poor management. If it weren't for poor management, a union would never get voted in, that is a simple fact, and even anti-union web sites state that.

You are telling the truth here. I talked to a few FLOPS people on the road and they felt very betrayed by what their management did to them. In my experience, whenever I worked for a union shop, there alyways seemed to be a battle somewhere. I guess the FLOPS management is ready to go to war with the possible intrusion of the union there. Too bad they(management) wern't more timely in answering the raises of CS and NJ. They had to know it was happening last summer. Good Luck.

 

[Humphreybogart]

Give it time. Things were good at RTA & Options at one point too. It all means nothing without a contract. I'll tell you why you would want the 1108, to solidify that compensation package and other QOL items that make you happy to work at CS.

I would be willing to bet that in a couple years you will wake up one day and realise that things are not so peachy for you anymore. Management WILL take things away, one by one so it isn't all that noticeable at first.

But I congratulate you on your raise and I HOPE that you can hold on to it. Thing is that is all you really have...HOPE.

This is true also. However, I hope our management still takes care of us as we grow larger. I think they will, but time will tell.

 

[Humphreybogart]

Bogart, let me ask you this...........at CS , is it possible to upgrade, even though there are those who are more senior than you and awaiting an upgrade as well??? Such being the case, doesnt that spark some animosity from those in line to upgrade and who are senior to a junior "go the extra mile" guy??? How many people are involved in the decision whether someone upgrades??? What if one of those people consistently shoots down an FO who bids captain becuase of a previous run in???? I am only curious. As you know, our system is simple.........bid it, hold it, get it and the rest is up to you.

Answer 1: Yes
Answer 2: Sometimes, people know where the stand in the upgrade line.
Answer 3: About 6-7
Answer 4: They will upgrade, but it may take a month or two longer.

 

[hydrarkt]

How do you even install and monitor a merit system in an organization with hundreds or thousands of pilots who are spread out all over the country and may never even see management face to face? It seems to me that the person who excels in that situation may be one who is unsafe, will fly a "questionable" airplane, fly over duty limits or fly in a situation which some other pilots will not.
In our business a pilot being evaluated on "merit" is suspect. It is also unsafe. At NJA there are no "checkmarks" or "brownie points" if I carry a maintenance item to the next airport instead of writing it up. There are no "brownie points" if I take off in conditions which prevent others from taking off. There are no "brownie points" if I fly over 14 hours of duty.
How do you evaluate pilots in your "merit system?" Sounds like a "kiss ass" system.

 

[realityman]

Okay, I'll bite too. Bogart, how, exactly, does the merit system work? This is not flamebait or sarcasm. I would honestly like to know. Mainly, does CS have anything printed? Kinda like practical test standards. Do you know exactly what you have to do to be considered for the upgrade? Does the company spell it out for you? Is it attitude? If so, how does your company management judge the attitude of pilots they may never ever meet face-to-face? Is it getting the job done? Do they take into consideration if you flew a broken airplane or not? And would that be considered a good thing or a bad thing? Does it involve one pilot "ratting" out another? (ie. I just flew a tour with Mr. xxxxxxx and he never once volunteered to help load bags or serve our passengers). If you routinely agree to fly past normal duty limits, does that count for or against you? In other words, do you honestly know how the merit system works at CS?
Sure, I'm a Netjets pilot. But seriously, I'm all for learning other systems. It's just that you've been telling how good the merit system is, but haven't really explained how it works.

 

[Humphreybogart]

How do you even install and monitor a merit system in an organization with hundreds or thousands of pilots who are spread out all over the country and may never even see management face to face? It seems to me that the person who excels in that situation may be one who is unsafe, will fly a "questionable" airplane, fly over duty limits or fly in a situation which some other pilots will not.
In our business a pilot being evaluated on "merit" is suspect. It is also unsafe. At NJA there are no "checkmarks" or "brownie points" if I carry a maintenance item to the next airport instead of writing it up. There are no "brownie points" if I take off in conditions which prevent others from taking off. There are no "brownie points" if I fly over 14 hours of duty.
How do you evaluate pilots in your "merit system?" Sounds like a "kiss ass" system.

Seems like everything you're mentioning as "brownie points" are actually breaking the regulations, and I hope that NO pilot no matter what company they worked for would do anything like that. It's a matter of safety, at CS, we would never be asked to do anything like that. I'm sure that doesn't happen at NJ either. If someone were to do it, I would think that it would be a negative act on their part not to mention irresponsible. What do you think?

 

[Humphreybogart]

Okay, I'll bite too. Bogart, how, exactly, does the merit system work? This is not flamebait or sarcasm. I would honestly like to know. Mainly, does CS have anything printed? Kinda like practical test standards. Do you know exactly what you have to do to be considered for the upgrade? Does the company spell it out for you? Is it attitude? If so, how does your company management judge the attitude of pilots they may never ever meet face-to-face? Is it getting the job done? Do they take into consideration if you flew a broken airplane or not? And would that be considered a good thing or a bad thing? Does it involve one pilot "ratting" out another? (ie. I just flew a tour with Mr. xxxxxxx and he never once volunteered to help load bags or serve our passengers). If you routinely agree to fly past normal duty limits, does that count for or against you? In other words, do you honestly know how the merit system works at CS?

I didn't think that this would be so interesting to you NJ guys. We fly periodically with standards captains, and they evaluate us on our performance throughout our tour. Yes they have a report they file on us after every tour. It is then sent to our assigned Asst. Chief Pilot. who recommends us, for an upgrade,based on the reports over the year. Don't ask what they grade us on, that's classified.

 

[FLYLOW22]

And if you end up being rated as a Brown Noser in good standing, you get an extra gold star by your name.

Get 5 of them and you are a REAL 5 STAR PILOT!!! Yeaaaaah!!!

Good old boy system. It's ripe for corruption.

 

[Hawkered]

The bottom line is if you guys are flying vendor operations for Netjets, or any of the fractionals, you really deserve a raise too! I mean, if you've got over thirty people on staff, you should really unionise.

Get the mechanics, pilots, flight attendants and ramp agents altogether and I'm sure you could come up with some convincing arguments for improvements in salary and working conditions.

There is an operator advertising right now for a Hawker captain at $60k, and working 12 on/ 2 off!!

Guys c'mon! Don't sell your soul to the devil! The aircraft is brand new and purchased at almost 13 million!

 

[finnjl]

Well, don't be bashful, speak up. What airlines are you referring to?


Better yet, let's just consider. This is the fractionals forum. Net Jets has by far the best working conditions of all the fractionals and is by far the best-paid... and the reason why is because of Local 1108. Their contract has forced the rest of the fractionals to step up and try to match them, but no one's come close.

AirNet- Non union - great company to work for
ASA - union - ok company to work for
Pinnacle - union - terrible company to work for

Threat of the union is better than a union anyday as was the case when I worked at AirNet. I imagine the local 1108 is much better than ALPA. As with anything there are Pros and cons.

 

[Guitar rocker]

AirNet- Non union - great company to work for
ASA - union - ok company to work for
Pinnacle - union - terrible company to work for

Threat of the union is better than a union anyday as was the case when I worked at AirNet. I imagine the local 1108 is much better than ALPA. As with anything there are Pros and cons.

The threat of Craig Washka giving you a checkride was terrible. I'm sure times have changed, but what a screamer.

 

[netjetwife]

Any union is only as good as the members are committed.

Any union is only as effective as the members are determined.

Any union is only a strong union when its members stand united.

 

[NavytoCivy]

Hello all. I’ve been reading along for awhile, but this is my first post. I felt compelled to put in my two cents.
I’m not trying to spark a debate with a planted Union Rep or anyone like that because, regardless of who’s right or wrong, you can’t win. I find it frustrating when someone posts an honest question or comment, only to be massacred and drowned out with union jargon and personal “you’re so ignorant” attacks. I can only speak from my experience which is more than some and less than others. I’ve been flying for CS for a while now and, honestly, it’s a great place to work. That’s the bottom line. If you read through the posts, most of the people who actually work here say something similar. I’m happy with the pay, the benefits and I truly enjoy the professionals I work with - both on the flightline and in the office. I’m happy with how fast I was promoted and yes, I even like my Supervisor. I’ve flown for others and I feel there’s value in enjoying where you work and feeling like being part of a big team. For me, that makes up for the $1-2K more a year that another company might offer – and I don’t even know that they do.
It’s true we are very busy, but that’s because we are good. I see busy as a good thing - I love to fly, it’s why I became a pilot. Contrary to what some have said, I’m not just a number here. I feel that what some refer to as the “Good ole Boys Club” others would consider the “Being Recognized for Doing a Good Job Club”. Personally, that’s the club I want to be in. Personally, I don’t need the Union to negotiate my pay - for a fee. Or protect me - for a fee. Or stand between me and my Supervisor – for a fee. Or to negotiate anything “on my behalf” (for a fee) by making my company and offer they can’t refuse. This isn’t 1930. If someone sexually harasses me, I have options. If I am unfairly passed up for promotion or fired unjustly, I have options. It’s 2006 – I’ll sue em. If my complaint is legitimate, I retire!
I guess my long-winded point is… I like it here at CitationShares as it is and don’t want or need any Union representation.

 

[miles otoole]

f U D

 

[miles otoole]

I guess my long-winded point is… I like it here at CitationShares as it is and don’t want or need any Union representation.

What can possibly be wrong with this?

 

[netjetwife]

When pilots feel that their needs are met and their interests are represented, there will probably be little interest in changing things. I don't think the focus is on CS right now, but, in the future, should your fellow pilots ask for a vote, surely you wouldn't have a problem with letting the majority decide? Many pilots think that your contentment is tied to the size of the company and believe that will change for the worse as CS grows larger. As no one can say, isn't it best to remain open-minded where unions are concerned? I don't think you'd feel as you do if you had gone through what the NJ pilots have. 1108 raised the bar for fractional pilot wages. You do recognize that, don't you?

 

[miles otoole]

I don't think the focus is on CS right now

Which focus is this and from whom?