How to get the union on property!

[Hawkered]

Please do..and for your own sake! What happens if Netjets goes after the light jet market by offering Cessna a deal they can't refuse?

STAPLE...unless you're a dues paying member.

 

[Guitar rocker]

No one seems to want to answer my simple questions. Maybe I should start a Union drive at Citation share......LOL

Trash will be back. He probably will give you some answer that really doesnt answer your question though.

 

[Hawkered]

He went to the store to buy a dictionary...

 

[XPGuy]

FracTrash was probably an Eastern Scab!

I doubt it - he was probably in diapers during the Eastern strike.

 

[XPGuy]

Why is everyone so down on unions? Most pilots should have come to the realization that sooner or later they will be flying for a unionized company.

What are the advantages of NOT having union representation at places like citationshare?

You don't pay union dues. That's the only advantage. Of course, if you ask any Net Jets pilot, I doubt they are complaining about paying their measly 1.5% monthly union dues for the $30k+ raise each and every one of them recently received, not to mention, one crew just put one off the runway, and they will reap the benefits of a Union representing them in the aftermath of bending up an airplane.

Fractrash has the brains of a frozen cranberry. Just do a history of his posts and you will see that he really has no concept of fractional aviation, and his posts are always demeaning to others, forcing them on the defensive, and supplying no factual information for his blasting flamebait posts.


Fewer and fewer companies in aviation that are considered "large" don't have unions. One of the most recognized companies for not having a union and having an excellent relationship with management in the past is SkyWest airlines.

Well, Skywest airlines is now in a union drive trying to get ALPA on the property. The problem? A common one that often makes people wish they had a union already - mergers & aquisitions.

SkyWest recently purchased ASA. ASA is ALPA. Although SkyWest is trying very hard to not put ASA and SkyWest planes on the same route, they have already put pilots and planes interchangeably at all hubs (KSLC, KATL, etc.).

Both pilot groups are worried about the other - airplanes going to one "company", therefore upgrades are attached, any down-sizing, etc. Also, ASA is worried rightfully so, that should the unlikely but still possible situation that ASA strike, the SkyWest pilots are not unionized, and could be forced to fly ASA's "struck work"... and in fact the company could utilize SkyWest's pilots at leisure, including hiring more pilots, to fly ASA's aircraft.

The fact that ASA has a contract protecting them and SkyWest does not puts SkyWest pilots in a dangerous position. SkyWest pilots have zero leverage with the parent company, and ASA does. ASA wants to file for single-carrier status - as they should. They fly the exact same equipment (CRJ's), and hub out of the exact same cities, for the most part. There is language in ASA's contract (as all contracts have) which allows them to file for single-carrier status in such situations.

The company is adamantly fighting it obviously, as if the petition for single-carrier status were approved, then all the SkyWest pilots would be subjected to BECOME ALPA union members, or at least to pay ALPA dues.

Here's the problem for SkyWest. If ASA were to win the single-carrier status, and SkyWest's pilots were not unionized, they would be subject to a staple of all their pilots to the bottom of the ASA seniority list. There is absolutely no protection for the SkyWest pilots.

Now. If SkyWest wins a vote and gets ALPA on the property, then it's a win-win for the SkyWest pilots, because now they can HELP with the single-carrier status... why would they do that? Because if the vote wins, it could take years to negotiate a contract... if they get single carrier status, they would fold in ASA's contract (which isn't bad at all for a regional, I believe theirs is slightly higher than ComAir's), and save years of negotiating a contract.

Also, obviously, ALPA pilots merging to another ALPA seniority list will be as per the ALPA contract, and would be a date-of-hire integration, NOT a staple.

As you can see, even the best relationships between management and employees can change literally overnight. When ASA was purchased by SkyWest, the relationship between SkyWest's pilots and management changed drastically, forcing those pilots to desperately need a union to protect them.

Flight Options was the same way. There was a time at Flight Options, before the merger with Travel Air, that a Union would have never been a possibility - the pilots for the most part were happy. Again, the catalyst of change was a merger with Raytheon's Travel Air, and subsequently, 3 different CEO's (4 including Raytheon Travel Air's CEO) since then who have done nothing but cut away the life style and benefits of the pilots.

The saying that our Union organizers are wanting us to say over and over again to our people so they remember, is this:

Management may come and go, but a CONTRACT ALWAYS STAYS.



Flight Options has a gigantic Neon sign saying FOR SALE BY OWNER around our the nose of all our airplanes, and we all know it. We could be merged or aquired sometime this year very easily. If that happens, if we have no union on the grounds, we will experience the same hardships we felt when RTA and Flight Options merged. If we happen to merge with another company that has a union on the property, we will be subject to a stapling of our seniority list.

It truly is in our best interest to have a Union to protect us in these situations, and I would like to hear any anti-union persons' argument that we are better off NOT having a union in these situations.

By the way. Flex Jet and Citation Shares are not immune to mergers or aquisitions. What seems highly improbably today can change tomorrow, just like who it is who's leading those companies. What Citation Shares pilots enjoy today (meaning reaping the benefits of Net Jets' contract) can be taken away tomorrow with a depressed economy. Without a Union, you are naked, and certainly don't have any protection. At least with a Union, you have a bullet proof vest on. It may not stop ALL bullets, but it'll stop most of them.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Excellent post XP Guy.

 

[FRACTRASH]

I did fly for a Union shop, for years, what a joke. Payed a sh!t load of Union dues for nothing but unemployment. Why, because all the flying went to the lowest bidder, who was also represented by the same Union. Unions are good at one thing lining their pockets with your union dues.


As far as a stapler. Now that's a laugh. CS is leading the future in how the fractional model should be ran. I'm not management, like some like to claim and I can tell you life is good at CS. We have a top notch management team that is a real pleasure to work for. You're not just a seniority number here.

 

[Diesel]

Frac-

Do you even understand the fractional model. Do you even understand how it works with an owner that has a contract. Do you even understand what a scope clause is? It's obvious you don't.

You're another family guy. Another company mole whos job it is to make sure that the evil union is blemished. MY union is 1108. They represent me.

So i'm sorry you had a poor experience with a crappy union. But that was at brand X and nobody cares about that. Maybe instead of b!tching about the union you should have jumped in and given a hand.

But no it's easier to yell from the sidelines. It's easier to complain and spread fear and doubt about how you were wronged.

Good luck to you.

 

[Hawkered]

Hey FracTrash?

When your last friend dumped you, did that mean that your new one will too?!

We had a bad union at Netjets!

We don't anymore man!!

Now..we have a "proven" model of progress and mutual respect. Don't let the misfortunes of the past railroad you into failure in the future!

 

[Safetycheck]

Railroad

Hey FracTrash?

When your last friend dumped you, did that mean that your new one will too?!

We had a bad union at Netjets!

We don't anymore man!!

Now..we have a "proven" model of progress and mutual respect. Don't let the misfortunes of the past railroad you into failure in the future!

Yea, railroad. Thats where he probably worked for a union last...at the railroad.

 

[Safetycheck]

What he said.

Originally Posted by Hawkered
Flexjet/FLOPS/Plane Sense/Avantair...and every 135 operator doing supplemental lift, take note!

Anybody from The International Brotherhood of Teamsters or anywhere else can just randomly show up at one of your places of employment and "demand" better working conditions. It dosent have to start with you!

What you need to do is NOT contact the IBT. www.ibt.org and state to them that you would like to start a union petition drive at your company.

You will not have to be very covert in your dealings in your place of employment. Until a petition drive is well underway, you are afforded very few protections from your employer. The IBT legal team will be there to hurt you through this formative and essential part of the process.

Once the IBT has received their "cards" back via US Registered Mail, they will not notify the National Labor Relations Board of the intention to represent the workers of your company. The NLRB will also notify your company of this petition.

The company will have to abide strictly by the covenants of the National Labor Relations Act. A federal law that is binding in all states...yes, including Texas! They cannot fire people, threaten them or change the working conditions, for if they do, they're almost certainly going to end up with a union shop before an election is ever held as a penalty administered by the NLRB.

We live in a society of corporate greed and accountancy scandals that are shaking the very foundations of our economy.

VOTE NON-UNION!!!

 

[Hawkered]

OHHH...an amazing 47 posts with nothing but plagarized attempts at satire!

The IQ of a retarded mosquito...or maybe it's just old age!

Here's your Ensure Grandpa...try not to spill any.

 

[Guitar rocker]

I did fly for a Union shop, for years, what a joke. Payed a sh!t load of Union dues for nothing but unemployment. Why, because all the flying went to the lowest bidder, who was also represented by the same Union. Unions are good at one thing lining their pockets with your union dues.


As far as a stapler. Now that's a laugh. CS is leading the future in how the fractional model should be ran. I'm not management, like some like to claim and I can tell you life is good at CS. We have a top notch management team that is a real pleasure to work for. You're not just a seniority number here.

Trash, they are all "a real pleasure to work for" until say perhaps you have an incident with an airplane or you get called in because a customer complains about you.......and we all know the customer is always right! Let me ask you this....you say "your not just a seniority number here," with that in mind and the fact that you have a "top notch" mgmt team, why is there a merit system in order to upgrade??? Everywhere else it's all based on seniority. If it was truly top notch mgmt, a merit system wouldnt be in place. Is it possible to never upgrade if you rubbed someone the wrong way there???

 

[Humphreybogart]

Trash, they are all "a real pleasure to work for" until say perhaps you have an incident with an airplane or you get called in because a customer complains about you.......and we all know the customer is always right! Let me ask you this....you say "your not just a seniority number here," with that in mind and the fact that you have a "top notch" mgmt team, why is there a merit system in order to upgrade??? Everywhere else it's all based on seniority. If it was truly top notch mgmt, a merit system wouldnt be in place. Is it possible to never upgrade if you rubbed someone the wrong way there???

Rocker, the merit system was put in place so that the person who excelled in their duties was rewarded with an upgrade, bonus or whatever. In every business there are people who excel and people who just bide their time. The merit system was set up to award the go the extra mile people maybe a little sooner than the bide your time people. Seniority still has alot to do with when you upgrade. CS won't take a 9 month go the extra mile person and upgrade them before a 12 month bide your time person.

Why do you think that every company would benefit with a union? IBM doesn't have a union and look how large they are. We are treated great by management here at CS. That is why there will NEVER be a union here at CS. We have alot of people from union backgrounds that are relieved to be away from a union shop. If you can't accept that fact, I'm sorry. I am not management, just a pilot flying the line like you. I don't even know while I'm answering you, because you won't answer my questions as to how long does it take on average to upgrade at NJ?

 

[loverobot]

I did fly for a Union shop, for years, what a joke. Payed a sh!t load of Union dues for nothing but unemployment. Why, because all the flying went to the lowest bidder, who was also represented by the same Union. Unions are good at one thing lining their pockets with your union dues.


As far as a stapler. Now that's a laugh. CS is leading the future in how the fractional model should be ran. I'm not management, like some like to claim and I can tell you life is good at CS. We have a top notch management team that is a real pleasure to work for. You're not just a seniority number here.

Keep saying this to yourself----

"I don't just work here"
"I don't just work here"
"I don't just work here"

Throw in a few of these too-----

"I am a valuble team member"
"I am a valuble team member"

Add a sprinkle of these----

"Its not about the money"
"Its not about the money"

A dash of this-----

"They really do just LIKE ME!"
"They really do just LIKE ME!"

Congratulations, you have now become a true beliver in what the law of ecomomics has proven to be wrong for 300 years. In the flowery world of CS there is no need for a dirty union where everyone is just a greedy seniority number. At CS it is all rainbows and sunshine, and gosh darn it; people like me!

 

[Guitar rocker]

Rocker, the merit system was put in place so that the person who excelled in their duties was rewarded with an upgrade, bonus or whatever. In every business there are people who excel and people who just bide their time. The merit system was set up to award the go the extra mile people maybe a little sooner than the bide your time people. Seniority still has alot to do with when you upgrade. CS won't take a 9 month go the extra mile person and upgrade them before a 12 month bide your time person.

Why do you think that every company would benefit with a union? IBM doesn't have a union and look how large they are. We are treated great by management here at CS. That is why there will NEVER be a union here at CS. We have alot of people from union backgrounds that are relieved to be away from a union shop. If you can't accept that fact, I'm sorry. I am not management, just a pilot flying the line like you. I don't even know while I'm answering you, because you won't answer my questions as to how long does it take on average to upgrade at NJ?

Knew that you would be back Bogart. The answer to our upgrade has been discussed in length on some recent threads. Go there and check it out. XPguy wrote a great post why a union is a good thing........if you havent read it, check it out. He sums it all up. Nobody here is driving union down your throat. On the contrary, Trash has accused our union of being a "sweatshop" and another ignorant question pertaining to what a union can do in the event you have an incident with an aircraft was raised. All I see from you are your thoughts of how terrible a union is.

I just dont think having a merit system is a sign of "top notch" mgmt. If mgmt has to sit there and compare one pilot over another and award an upgrade based on a comparison, something is wrong. In the real world, if you bid it and your seniority holds it, you got it.

Some of your other brothers out there at CS would like to see a union on the property. Just like one of your other brothers acknowledged (right here) that the raise you got was as a result of our contract. After speaking to those at CS who I do know, and some right here, they share a view which seems to be quite opposite from that of yours.

 

[loverobot]

I am happy for the CS folks who smile everyday at their jobs, its good for them and its good for the world to have more smiles. Reading those warm and fuzzy posts about the perfect job make everyone feel good. Keep it up! It reminds me of John Lennon and "Imagine". Those shiney-happy CS guys with their yellow ties the color of sunshine. Don't loose your innocence, your purity, the eyes of the children you are. Keep the faith that your raise on January first was because of love. Your management loves you, your customers love you. Saving lives every day with your jets. Helping the disadvantaged in their travel needs, doing the work of God. Keep smiling that smile, your the best paid Fractional jet operator. Hold hands and sing the kumbayaa of 1% better then the rest, you deserve it, the world deserves it.

To only be a child again........

 

[XPGuy]

I challenged these Union nay-sayers to tell us how they think not being a union is the better route when a company is bought or merged... they didn't answer the challenge because they know they can't.


The merit system at CS is NOT fair. There have been sexual harrassment charges against the company by female pilots, and I have personally talked to pilots who feel they were wronged out of an upgrade not because of poor performance, but because a certain person said a certain something to the right manager, and it got stopped.

It is an unfair business practice, and is practically unheard of in aviation. The ONLY thing that should keep a pilot out of an upgrade is not being able to handle the duties of being a PIC... and that is verified by a checkride and a line check. Citation Shares doesn't let those who are senior enough to have a chance, if "they don't like them".

Besides. Bogart and Fractrash will be there a LONG time before they upgrade... WE sure as hell don't like them and their condescending attitudes - their immature outlook on their own industry. They don't know anything about our industry, they prove that almost every post. Certainly the pilots in their kool-aid drinkers' klub will sniff them out. They ain't gonna go nowhere fast.

 

[loverobot]

When the machine grows, so does the need for control. A contract as to what is expected of both parties will become more and more important. Too many names, circumstances, and issues to slip through the cracks.

Get it in writing, or it doesn't exist.

 

[Humphreybogart]

Some of your other brothers out there at CS would like to see a union on the property. Just like one of your other brothers acknowledged (right here) that the raise you got was as a result of our contract. After speaking to those at CS who I do know, and some right here, they share a view which seems to be quite opposite from that of yours.

I'm sure there are some people at CS that would like to see a union here. They definately are not the majority. We at CS don't hang around the FBO and discuss how to get a union on property, it was never even brought up to me by anyone at CS. The only talk about unions and CS, come from you people from the outside trying to make waves with a company that is exceling because of the hard work of their employees. I am happy for you, Rocker, and all your buddies on here that are happy working for a union shop. I am also happy that I DON'T work at a union shop. Why is that so hard for you union guys to accept?

Reading the article that was discussed in other posts, our raise was going to be given to us regardless if NJ ratified their contract or not. Did our management know what NJ was going for, sure, but even if you didn't vote in your TA, we would have received our raise.

Everybody has their own opinion on anything that is discussed. It doesn't matter if people agree with what I say or not, we're still are entitled to our own opinions. I don't agree with alot of things that you say on here, but you have your right for your opinion.