How much IFR flight planning do you do?

[minitour]

Pain
In
The
A$$

 

[SkySBA]

What is a PITA?

http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=PITA

 

[Lead Sled]

I've done the electronic filing a few times. I always get worried my flight plan is going to get lost and I'll be stuck on a ramp trying to phone FSS from my cell to file. But that is a good option with the electronic programs.

...I so agree with the time spent calculating. Usually when you do that, you get two clearances before you depart, one or two right after takeoff, then two or three enroute before getting direct as soon as you can possibly get the destination to ID (assuming no GPS)...what a PITA.

Mini...
Oh ye of little faith. The only time I ever have problems with lost flight plans is when I let our FSS friends file them.

Another good way to plan and file is using www.fltplan.com , any of the duats-based programs, or the AOPA sponsered program.

FWIW, I don't know if I'd let a student use any of those programs during his training. Manually planing the flights tends to ingrain the concepts involved - there will be plenty of time to use all of the shortcuts and aids later.

'Sled

 

[Pedro]

FWIW, I don't know if I'd let a student use any of those programs during his training. Manually planing the flights tends to ingrain the concepts involved - there will be plenty of time to use all of the shortcuts and aids later.

'Sled

Agree 100 %, I never taught my students to use those programs, allways the old fashioned way. I tried my best not to teach "bad" habits to my students. Not that using these tools is a bad habit, but I didn't want them to get used to slack.

 

[minitour]

FWIW, I don't know if I'd let a student use any of those programs during his training. Manually planing the flights tends to ingrain the concepts involved - there will be plenty of time to use all of the shortcuts and aids later.

'Sled

Word.

...but once you get the ticket, there's no reason to sit down and figure out how much fuel you'll burn in the 5 miles between fixes on X airway...

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

Don't get me wrong, I think that programs like Flitesoft, et al are the greated thing since sliced bread. There is no way that I'd go back to doing it the "old" way - I like knowing what my fuel burn will be within 100 pounds and my flight time within 5 minutes on a coast-to-coast trip. I see it as a safety of flight issue - especially when you're running out to the edges of the performance envelope as we frequently do. I guess what I'm saying is that I also wouldn't want a student to see the way we do our pre-flight planning - I would hope that a student or low-time pilot would take more than the few minutes that it actually takes us to assemble the appropriate information and calculate the actual flight plan. We take a few shortcuts, but then we've got the experience to know where we can do it and where we shouldn't. And Mini, yes, I can tell you the time and fuel burned and the fuel remaining between any two points on our flight plan. Although we seldom file or fly airways (95% of our flying is direct), we do have VOR/DME based waypoints along our entire routes at roughly 150 NM mile (20 minute) intervals to back up our great circle based direct routing.

'Sled

 

[Pedro]

I agree with you. What I mentioned above was only for IFR students. I don't even plan my own trips anymore, I just check them.

 

[cforst513]

What is a PITA?

Psychos for the Ethical Treatment of Animals....


oh wait, wrong PETA.

 

[Vector4fun]

Regarding amended routes;

I'm not complaining here, but if folks ever took the time to actually look at the DPs, noted that some are only for certain altitude strata, then noted the MEAs for the routes they file in the mountains, then noted the presence of MOAs and R-areas along their route of flight, a lot of those amendments wouldn't be needed.

I've come to realise that a lot of corporate/frac guys aren't filing their own flight plans anymore, so this is also a problem in the dispatch depts.

The FAA is also at fault for not publishing more pref routings. We have to use them because of LOAs between facilities, but they're not published where pilots and dispatch can find them.

 

[minitour]

And Mini, yes, I can tell you the time and fuel burned and the fuel remaining between any two points on our flight plan. Although we seldom file or fly airways (95% of our flying is direct), we do have VOR/DME based waypoints along our entire routes at roughly 150 NM mile (20 minute) intervals to back up our great circle based direct routing.

'Sled

As can I...but I think you misunderstood me.

What I meant was that there's no reason for you or me to sit down and take the 20 minutes it would take to figure out our mag. heading, gs, wca, time, fuel, etc. between those 5mi points when the computer does it all (the whole flight) in less than 5 minutes.

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

The FAA is also at fault for not publishing more pref routings. We have to use them because of LOAs between facilities, but they're not published where pilots and dispatch can find them.

This has been one of my pet peeves for years. The first thing I do when I'm going to be doing a lot of flying into / out of a new area is to give the local controllers a phone call and find out what the local prefered routings are - it really cuts the time it takes to "become fluent" with the new area. As long as I'm talking pet peeves, Take a look at the local preferred routings here in Southern California. Why is the FAA still defining pref routings with airway to airway interceptions or VOR radial to VOR radials? There is such a high percentage of FMS/GPS/Loran equipped aircraft out there, this would certainly end a lot of cockpit confusion and heads down time in high density areas if they would use named intersections instead. I also love it when they tell you to fly the AAA VOR XXX degree radial to BBBBB intersection. That's the long way to say, "AAA Vor direct BBBBB intersection" - again it overly complicates what would otherwise be a simple task.

Mini, you're right, I misunderstood you. (Are you sure you're not my wife?)

'Sled

 

[minitour]

(Are you sure you're not my wife?)

'Sled

I know the feelin'!

As a followup question...something I was never taught and haven't used.
T.E.C.

As I understand, I can go from an airport served by an approach facility to another one so long as the whole route is served by approach facilities?

So...even though I can't find anything in my Jepp binders on this particular area, I could to TEC from YNG to MFD since you'd talk to YNG, CAK and MFD approach/departure (assuming they're open)?

Do you actually file a flight plan for TEC or just ask for Tower Enroute from ground/clearance?

IOW: I'm on the ground at BKL to go home (YNG). Do I have to file with FSS, or do I just ask Ground "Ground N123 Tower Enroute to YNG with Lima"?

I always wondered but forgot to ask.

Thanks for da help!

-mini

 

[midlifeflyer]

This has been one of my pet peeves for years. The first thing I do when I'm going to be doing a lot of flying into / out of a new area is to give the local controllers a phone call and find out what the local preferred routings are

I did something similar last year. We took a vacation trip to Florida last year and decided to rent an airplane and visit friends and family. Figured most of the flying would be VFR, but planned at least one of the them to be IFR. I sent an email to Miami Center and asked what I could expect for a routing. They replied within 24 hours and the route I filed was exactly the route I got.

 

[GotBoost?]

My understanding is that TEC is just getting the handoff direct from YNG-CAK-MFD approach without ever talking to center, not any difference with how the route is filed. I've flown from the CAK area to BOS area a few times routing thru ELM-BGM-ALB, and I've noticed that flying at 060-080 I talk to approach at each terminal area, but the one time I got up to 110 to get on top & ride some good tailwinds, I was on with Cleveland & Boston centers much more. Just my observations based on my miniscule experience.

One of my CFIs showed me the fltplan.com site while I was working on my IFR. He'd have me do the planning manually & then run it on fltplan to compare times & whatnot. I've been using them to file as well, and so far between fltplan DUAT & FSS its the only method that hasn't lost a plan of mine (yet).

 

[English]

Do you actually file a flight plan for TEC or just ask for Tower Enroute from ground/clearance?

IOW: I'm on the ground at BKL to go home (YNG). Do I have to file with FSS, or do I just ask Ground "Ground N123 Tower Enroute to YNG with Lima"?

I always wondered but forgot to ask.

Thanks for da help!

-mini

Mini,

You can do it either way. The disadvantage to asking clearance delivery to file for you is that you can't file an alternate (usually). If you need an alternate, it's best to pre-file.

What you'd tell CD is something like - CD, Cessna XXXYZ requests tower enroute to SAN. C152/A at ramp with Uniform.

 

[gkrangers]

My understanding is that TEC is just getting the handoff direct from YNG-CAK-MFD approach without ever talking to center, not any difference with how the route is filed. I've flown from the CAK area to BOS area a few times routing thru ELM-BGM-ALB, and I've noticed that flying at 060-080 I talk to approach at each terminal area, but the one time I got up to 110 to get on top & ride some good tailwinds, I was on with Cleveland & Boston centers much more. Just my observations based on my miniscule experience.

One of my CFIs showed me the fltplan.com site while I was working on my IFR. He'd have me do the planning manually & then run it on fltplan to compare times & whatnot. I've been using them to file as well, and so far between fltplan DUAT & FSS its the only method that hasn't lost a plan of mine (yet).

I don't even know what TEC stands for...but ti doesn't sound different. On a short flight you'll be at a lower altitude and likely stay within the terminal airspace....on a longer flight, you'll be higher, and get above the terminal airspace into center...

Flying here in central Florida is mostly Approach to Approach...if you fly between the DAB-MCO-TPA area, its all approach, as long as you are low enough, of course. Once you head north to JAX tho, you'll get center...and if you head south towards VRB, FLL, MIA, etc you'll get Miami center....

Heres another question...under what environment can a "local ifr" be used? Does the flight have to stay within the TRACON it was requested in?

 

[English]

TEC = tower enroute control

 

[Vector4fun]

I also love it when they tell you to fly the AAA VOR XXX degree radial to BBBBB intersection. That's the long way to say, "AAA Vor direct BBBBB intersection" - again it overly complicates what would otherwise be a simple task.

I know, I hate it too. I have had to read 'em that way for years. It took four years, but we finally got 90% of our DPs published so they "mesh" with the Pref Routes. So instead of;

"RV CWK088052.V306.TNV..etc climb and maintain..., expect....blah, blah" (When V306 is the CWK088 to begin with)

it's now

"CWK2..TNV, AF, squawk XXX"

The trouble is, getting the department of the FAA that charts procedures to talk to the dept that programs DPs and Pref Routings in the HOST, and getting both to return phone calls to the Procedures Dept at the Center, and then getting the Procedures guy at the Center to cooperate with the procedures offices at the Tracons.

There's always 20 reasons why they "can't" this week. Sometimes you have to weild a very big stick to persuade them they can...

 

[Vector4fun]

Heres another question...under what environment can a "local ifr" be used? Does the flight have to stay within the TRACON it was requested in?

Correct. In simple terms, a local IFR is a flight that doesn't leave the TRACON's airspace, which means you'll normally be given a "local" IFR code from that TRACON's assigned code bank, and there's no flight plan ever entered into the NAS. Each Tracon has an assigned "bank" of codes. (For example, 0400-0477)
Within that bank, certain sets of codes are used for different things, and we might have 8 codes set aside for Local IFR use. The ARTS is programmed to recognise these as IFR codes, and therefore the Minimum Safe Altitude Warning, (MSAW) works with those codes. It won't activate if you're squawking a VFR code....

 

[midlifeflyer]

don't even know what TEC stands for...but ti doesn't sound different. On a short flight.

"Tower Enroute Control" routes are very common in the northeast and California where approach facilities abut each other and cover a wide area.

You can go pretty far outside the "local" area and never speak with a Center controller as you are handed off from approach facility to approach facility. For example, there a TEC Route listed going from the BDL area in Connecticut down to Richmond VA, a 340 NM flight.

As has been already mentioned, in some areas, you don't even need to file ahead of time. In others you do. Either way, the A/FD and Jepp enroute information lists them in the same way as IFR preferred routes.