How Long?

[starchkr]

Indypilot....I think IPO76 was just doing the math after BoilerUp suggested a "small" raise to all the pilots in a company. Boiler suggested a 2-4 dollar raise per person, and I too immediately turned to my trusty calculator to do some math. His $6 math was a bit steep, so i did the same math with $2. @ $2 it would come out to 204,000 per month, 2,448,000 per year, and who knows how much in OT they would have to pay with the increase in pay. Now i am not saying that pilots do not deserve this...god knows i am not saying that...I know i could desperately use some extra money right now. But you can see where a company sees the downfall in paying even as little as $2 more per hour, less profits for them. And we all know that management does not want to take that 2.4 million and give it to pilots, when they can give it to themselves as bonuses. My suggestion...if you do not like regional airline wages, don't go to them...there are other ways to get your experience and move to the majors. Or go to a regional as a management type and then you can pay yourself that 2.4 million as a bonus each year.

 

[cale42]

I'm sure I'm gonna get my rear lit on fire for saying this.. but what the hey. Until the levels of education and skill required to be a professional pilot match what is required of other professional fields the matching pay will not exist. Why do doctors and lawyers make so much money? Because they went through 4 years of undergrad training, where they excelled, they were smart enough to get the GMAT or LSAT scores to get into medical/law school and the busted their butts for several more years finishing school and being at the bottom of the totem pole as a resident or an associate. It is an extrememly small percentage of the population that is even capable of this, and of that only a few of the capable ones want to do it.

On the flip side.. what is necessary to be a Commercial pilot. 18 years in the world and passing a 4 hour checkride. There are plenty of pilots out there that never even graduated high school.. mind you college. So, simply put, there is a large percentage of the population that can do this, and it is an attractive job, so there is a large percentage of people that want to do this.

The simple fact of the matter is being a pro pilot is not a "professional" position. It is skilled labor. Same amount of talent as a welder or an electrician. As long as that is the case the pay will be that of skilled labor(quite respectable but nothing to get rich on).

Sure you can argue that pilots have more responsibility.. human lives in their hands and what not.. and that is probably true. However until the entry requirements to be a pro pilot is drastically raised thus reducing the number of pilots(supply and demand here folks) the wages will stay where they are.

Do you think doctors would get paid so much if everyone and their mother could get an MD by spending 40K and a year or 2 of their lives... I highly doubt it.

Just my $.02

cale

 

[fokkers&beer]

The staring pay for the regionals is very low, I agree with that. The problem with the industry is deeper however. When someone can spend over 100k on a college education that allows them to get a right seat job with sought after regional, when he may not be as qualified as other more experienced applicants, then his pay should be rock bottom. He should not be complaining about making 20 -25k a year. Most entry level jobs in the corporate world would'nt pay a whole lot better, and those are jobs going to college grads with four year degrees. It is pitiful but true. If the 500 hour FO's have problems with that go fly some place and get some experience, get humbled and get some respect and maybe your pay will reflect what you should be paid, not a pay to play game.
The other half of the problem is the top pay is too high. Heres some news guys, its not 1968 and the airlines arent regulated anymore, low cost is king, were not flying 707's and pilots arent heroes. The truth is were a dime a dozen, and pay will reflect it, its simple economics, it sucks but its true.
To be in this ball game you got to do it because you like the job. Do not do it for the money.
The

 

[pilotyip]

Fly because you like to

A high school drop out can make a living flying an airplane and have a skill level equal to anyone out there driving airplanes, in fact I know one at a major. Pilots are a commodity, a company or an airline needs a COM/INST/MEL rated pilot, there are 1,000's to chose from, and the job goes to the lowest bidder. Skill above a minimum level means little to the employer. In fact the skill level above the minimum has little to do with the hiring process, personality, work ethic, etc, play more into the pilot hiring process than hours and ratings. Anyone with a certain level of skill and some desire can become a pilot. I love flying, do it as much as I can, and I enjoy flying anything with wings, and that is reason I came back to aviation. But I think sometimes pilots have a misplaced why they fly, if you are in it because you like flying, you will not be disappointed. If you are in for the money, you may be disappointed. If you want money become a sought after professional that can solve a company's problems.

 

[BoilerUP]

Indypilot....I think IPO76 was just doing the math after BoilerUp suggested a "small" raise to all the pilots in a company. Boiler suggested a 2-4 dollar raise per person, and I too immediately turned to my trusty calculator to do some math. His $6 math was a bit steep, so i did the same math with $2. @ $2 it would come out to 204,000 per month, 2,448,000 per year, and who knows how much in OT they would have to pay with the increase in pay. Now i am not saying that pilots do not deserve this...god knows i am not saying that...I know i could desperately use some extra money right now. But you can see where a company sees the downfall in paying even as little as $2 more per hour, less profits for them. And we all know that management does not want to take that 2.4 million and give it to pilots, when they can give it to themselves as bonuses. My suggestion...if you do not like regional airline wages, don't go to them...there are other ways to get your experience and move to the majors. Or go to a regional as a management type and then you can pay yourself that 2.4 million as a bonus each year.

If every airline were to increase the cost of each round trip ticket by ONLY $10, you could give the whole flight crew a $1-3/hr raise and vastly increase revenue for the airline. If a passenger decides not to travel because of an extra $10 attached to their ticket, then I don't think the airline should want them anyways.

The key to airlines being profitable isn't just reducing cost; they should be concentrating on increasing revenue. I'm not looking for a CR2/145 CA to make AAI 717 wages, but a couple bucks will NOT effect the bottom line of any carrier out there. Back in my (literal) infancy, you could fly across the country $99 each way. Twenty years later, you can STILL fly across the country for $99 each way. I'm no bean counter, but that stinks of foolish management and misplaced priorities.

I agree with the posters above, if you believe regional salaries are too low and you can make more $$$ elsewhere (aviation or otherwise), then don't apply. I just think if I (as a college senior with only one economics class) can figure out a painless way to increase revenue and make their employees happy at the same time, why can't they?

 

[Dizel8]

Well, part of the problem is market share. Everybody wants it, so nobody gets it!

Well, that is not entirely true. Why does carriers defend their hubs like crazy, case in point NWA? Because if you "own" the market, you get to set the price.
Look at fares from DTW to Reno before, during and after Reno Air, but it was not just to Reno, it was every where Reno flew. The prices from DTW to those destinations dropped dramatically. The same thing was going on in ATL prior to Airtran, etc, etc.

Sure, a two dollars raise does not sound like much, but if the pilots gets one, the F/A's, the Mechs, the rampers etc. wants one, before you know it, it cost a lot of money.

It is correct, that all carriers, well more or less, would make money, if we could raise fares by 20 bucks, but if not all carriers goes along, as NWA seldom does, we get nowhere. If 20 bucks per ticket if the difference between going or not, then one needs to stay home. It would cost more than 200 bucks to drive coast to coast and take four days.

 

[a-v-8er]

So, the point here is that pilots should be paid less?! Since we are not professionals, but only skilled individuals...

What a load of #$%... I'll settle for skilled over professional (compared to doctors), but with the time, effort and money invested I'd like be able to make a living and not depend on welfare someday.

Some of us could use less, many of us could use a lot more $$!

 

[Palerider957]

Cale:

Main Entry: pro·fes·sion
Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-&n
Function: noun
1 : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation
2 : the whole body of persons engaged in a calling

Pilots are most definately professionals, don't ever sell this occupaton short again. This self deprecation is one of the reasons that pilots stuggle with contracts and infight so much. I think you statement was rediculous to begin with.

The former owners at ASA once were quoted in a magazine as saying "It seems to me it doesn't take a whole lot of sense to drive an airplane from point A to point B." By not forcing George and John to eat those words, the pilot group let them chisel away at the core of this profession. We can be our own worst enemies, but make no mistake--if you are in an airliner, you are a "prefessional." (at least you had better be if my family is aboard.)

Boler up:

Go to Expedia, or Travelocity and look at the ticket prices. A 1$ dollar difference jumbles the selection of flights quite a bit. You have to scroll fairly far down the page to find a $10 difference. Most people choose the first or second option. If you are $10 more, adios...... It's unfortunate that fares are so razor thin, but that's the hard reality.

 

[aewanabe]

On the flip side.. what is necessary to be a Commercial pilot. 18 years in the world and passing a 4 hour checkride. There are plenty of pilots out there that never even graduated high school.. mind you college. So, simply put, there is a large percentage of the population that can do this, and it is an attractive job, so there is a large percentage of people that want to do this.

The simple fact of the matter is being a pro pilot is not a "professional" position. It is skilled labor. Same amount of talent as a welder or an electrician. As long as that is the case the pay will be that of skilled labor(quite respectable but nothing to get rich on).


cale

Hey dumbass chickenhawk RG driver:

You were actually making sense until you threw these 2 paragraphs of BS in. First of all, this thread is by and large referring to airline pilots, people flying your sorry ass and your miserable family around. Find me an airline pilot who "never graduated high school". Just because any kid can obtain a commercial pilot certificate is not the same as saying any moron can also become an airline pilot. There's a whole ton of weeding out, both by the career itself and the screening process, between receiving that "Commercial Pilot" license and getting the congratulations letter from your first regional. I believe the figure is that LESS THAN 10 PERCENT of all commercial pilot certificate-holders become actually employed at the 121 level.

Second, your idiotic comparison to skilled manual labor trades. In reality, those trades probably require MORE hand-eye coordination than landing my RJ in a crosswind. But, once again, you're one of those idiots that thinks button-pushing and stick-and-rudder defines piloting. The true worth of our profession is in the hundreds of decisions we make on a DAILY basis, in an ever-changing tactical situation. (ATC and WX). Not even getting into the rare times when our actions take on life-or-death implications.

You must be one of those jackasses who flew a 172RG and thought "Hey, the wheels go up-and-down on this thing. It's just like an airliner. I'm such a stud now" and decided you know everything about flying. Do us all a favor. If you're trying to break into the industry, don't. With an attitude like yours you may pass a commercial checkride but you'll never be a professional. And if you're not in the industry, STFU.

 

[cale42]

Wow.. it's my the first time on flightinfo that I've ever been personally attacked by someone who has never met me, yet presumes to know my entire story based on one post I made... I finally feel like I really belong on the board now.


Let me clear up a couple points here. First of all the generalizations I made about getting a commercial pilot certificate were just that.. about getting the certificate, not about being an airline pilot. When I used the term pro pilot I was referring to all commercial certificate holders, not just airline pilots. While I agree that what makes an airline pilot any good is their ability to make timely decisions in an everchanging environment with minimal information, I still feel that there are too many people who make it in the aviation world that simply do not have the ability. My point was not that airline pilots should not be professionals, simply that the entry requirements do not force that issue enough. As most doctors will tell you, getting that MD is the first step towards being a doctor.. much like the commercial certificate is the first step towards being an airline pilot. From there in many ways the careers are similar, starting at the bottom, and proving yourself day in and day out to different people that you can cut in the harshest of environments. However the ability to clear step 1 just differs so drastically. That said, I'm at the very beginning levels of this career, maybe the whole airline interview process really does weed all the "non-pros" out effectively enough, and I just haven't experienced that.

I hate to stoop to having to defend myself in a post, but I feel I was so unfairly attacked by aewanabe that I need to. Three things, 1. the very first thing I said upon passing my commercial checkride was "holy crap, I have so much to learn before I could ever fly a jet" I have no delusions of grandeur about the similarities between a Cessna Cutlass and an airliner and I still don't understand how any one could jump right to a jet or big turboprop with 250 hours and a commerical cert. 2. I worked in a consulting position that had difficult entry requirements for 2.5 years and there was no question it was a "professional" position so I have no qualms about my ability to be a professional. Lastly aewanabe, I love to fly and have every intention of making it in the airline industry so I'm afraid your stuck with me and my "attitude" although I'm still a little unsure what that attitude is.

cale

 

[Indypilot]

"If every airline were to increase the cost of each round trip ticket by ONLY $10, you could give the whole flight crew a $1-3/hr raise and vastly increase revenue for the airline. If a passenger decides not to travel because of an extra $10 attached to their ticket, then I don't think the airline should want them anyways."


Here is where the problem lies. First of all, airlines can't collude, so this would be hard to do. There will be one airline that doesn't raise its prices, and everyone else will suffer because of it.

Next point, a $10 raise in ticket prices will LOWER revenue for the airline as most airlines are on the very elastic point of the demand curve. You can raise prices by $10 and get and extra 2M in revenue, but you would lose 3M in total business because of the increase in price. That would make the airline lose an extra 1M.

But lets suppose that all airlines could raise ticket prices by $10. supply and demand dictates that the overall demand for the industry would go down. This means each and every airline has the above happen. What that does mean is you could give a raise to most of your pilots, but at the expense of furloughing the bottom 1/4.

Listen, I think the rates are too low, but fixing that isn't as simple as raising ticket prices. You need a shift in the demand curve for the entire industry for problems to start going away. Right now we are just moving up and down the demand curve, passengers are returning to flying, but why, lower prices. Until the public returns to wanting to pay $500 for a one way ticket, nothing is going to change. The only other way to fix the problem is to create a shortage of pilots by erecting huge barriers to entry. The problem with this, is that it will cost many pilots their jobs, and it also takes a long time for those changes to take effect. With the way the economics of it works right now, you could have a lot of pilots making little, or few pilots making a lot. Which is right? who knows. All I can say is if you really don't like it, go become a desk jockey and make more.

 

[aewanabe]

Wow.. it's my the first time on flightinfo that I've ever been personally attacked by someone who has never met me, yet presumes to know my entire story based on one post I made... I finally feel like I really belong on the board now.

cale

Yes, you do really belong now. Congratulations.

I apologize for the tone of my post. Your original post sounded like you were saying the only price of entry to the "airline world" was 40K and the ability to earn a Commercial Certificate. That point of view tends to severely piss me off; regardless I don't think you quite deserved the full amount of venom and wrath in my response, so again I apologize.

Your reply makes it sound much more likely that you do actually "get it". I hope so. PLEASE do not sell yourself or the profession short as you work towards your goal of being an "airline pilot".... there are many other people all too willing to do that for you. In the meantime, good luck. Enjoy the Cutlass while you're in it.... it's a pretty decent airplane for its role. I was always disappointed that Cessna didn't include any of the RGs when they started producing new aircraft in 1997. Enough rambling now... time for more coffee!

 

[BoilerUP]

While everyone makes valid points, I still find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that airlines will lose passengers if they raise ticket prices $10/round trip. Once again, if a passenger isn't willing to fork over $10 extra bucks to fly across the country, do you really want them as a passenger?

The industry doesn't need full-blown collusion on fares, what it needs is for NWA and the others out there to quit low-balling everybody's small fare increases.

Supply and demand is an essential part of economics, but so is bringing in enough revenue to cover costs(priority #1), while making a profit (#2).

Like I said, I don't have all the answers and I'm not a bean counter. I think the fares of the late 90s-early 2000s were ridiculous and drove passengers away, but I think the fares of today are doing little to stem the loss of red ink. It all seems so simple...

 

[sttretch15]

I'm sure I'm gonna get my rear lit on fire for saying this.. but what the hey. Until the levels of education and skill required to be a professional pilot match what is required of other professional fields the matching pay will not exist. Why do doctors and lawyers make so much money? Because they went through 4 years of undergrad training, where they excelled, they were smart enough to get the GMAT or LSAT scores to get into medical/law school and the busted their butts for several more years finishing school and being at the bottom of the totem pole as a resident or an associate. It is an extrememly small percentage of the population that is even capable of this, and of that only a few of the capable ones want to do it.

On the flip side.. what is necessary to be a Commercial pilot. 18 years in the world and passing a 4 hour checkride. There are plenty of pilots out there that never even graduated high school.. mind you college. So, simply put, there is a large percentage of the population that can do this, and it is an attractive job, so there is a large percentage of people that want to do this.

The simple fact of the matter is being a pro pilot is not a "professional" position. It is skilled labor. Same amount of talent as a welder or an electrician. As long as that is the case the pay will be that of skilled labor(quite respectable but nothing to get rich on).

Sure you can argue that pilots have more responsibility.. human lives in their hands and what not.. and that is probably true. However until the entry requirements to be a pro pilot is drastically raised thus reducing the number of pilots(supply and demand here folks) the wages will stay where they are.

Do you think doctors would get paid so much if everyone and their mother could get an MD by spending 40K and a year or 2 of their lives... I highly doubt it.

Just my $.02

cale

You are right man. If I could reach through this computer.... I personally worked darn hard to become a pilot. Sure it can be done quickly to attain you ratings but that is a tiny piece of the puzzle. What major airline will touch a pilot without at least a BS or an associates. I worked hard for my BS and have aspirations of a Masters. To get to the regionals just to start is difficult enough, just to gain enough experience and flight time. That is what airlines hire is experience. When you get on a 747 or even the smallest 1900. Who is responsible for every life on that airplane?? hmm The captain, and to some degree the First Officer. That is the biggest part of the job. The captain is the final authority as to the operation and safety of that aircraft. That is a kind of responsibility unseen in any other field that I can think of. So before you shoot your mouth off think about it. I respect the fields of doctors and lawyers, i coulda been one if i felt like sitting at a desk all day. I like my office now thank you. Great view. But it takes a special kind of person to be a successful career pilot. We get paid lousy enough for our lifestyle in the regionals and soon unfoutunately it looks like one won't make much at the majors for long. Personally if someone is responsible for my life when the %^it hits that fan... I want to be well taken care of. Being a professional pilot is an entirely different thing than having a CPL. Any yahoo can get a CPL true. But a professional pilot it does not make

 

[WhiteCloud]

We'll never get that $2.00 raise as long as the federal government thinks it can get it in the form of a tax of some kind. Our industry is being taxed into oblivion. We need to publicize how much of each consumer dollar goes to taxes.