How Long?

[Dizel8]

Well, part of the problem is market share. Everybody wants it, so nobody gets it!

Well, that is not entirely true. Why does carriers defend their hubs like crazy, case in point NWA? Because if you "own" the market, you get to set the price.
Look at fares from DTW to Reno before, during and after Reno Air, but it was not just to Reno, it was every where Reno flew. The prices from DTW to those destinations dropped dramatically. The same thing was going on in ATL prior to Airtran, etc, etc.

Sure, a two dollars raise does not sound like much, but if the pilots gets one, the F/A's, the Mechs, the rampers etc. wants one, before you know it, it cost a lot of money.

It is correct, that all carriers, well more or less, would make money, if we could raise fares by 20 bucks, but if not all carriers goes along, as NWA seldom does, we get nowhere. If 20 bucks per ticket if the difference between going or not, then one needs to stay home. It would cost more than 200 bucks to drive coast to coast and take four days.

 

[a-v-8er]

So, the point here is that pilots should be paid less?! Since we are not professionals, but only skilled individuals...

What a load of #$%... I'll settle for skilled over professional (compared to doctors), but with the time, effort and money invested I'd like be able to make a living and not depend on welfare someday.

Some of us could use less, many of us could use a lot more $$!

 

[Palerider957]

Cale:

Main Entry: pro·fes·sion
Pronunciation: pr&-'fesh-&n
Function: noun
1 : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation
2 : the whole body of persons engaged in a calling

Pilots are most definately professionals, don't ever sell this occupaton short again. This self deprecation is one of the reasons that pilots stuggle with contracts and infight so much. I think you statement was rediculous to begin with.

The former owners at ASA once were quoted in a magazine as saying "It seems to me it doesn't take a whole lot of sense to drive an airplane from point A to point B." By not forcing George and John to eat those words, the pilot group let them chisel away at the core of this profession. We can be our own worst enemies, but make no mistake--if you are in an airliner, you are a "prefessional." (at least you had better be if my family is aboard.)

Boler up:

Go to Expedia, or Travelocity and look at the ticket prices. A 1$ dollar difference jumbles the selection of flights quite a bit. You have to scroll fairly far down the page to find a $10 difference. Most people choose the first or second option. If you are $10 more, adios...... It's unfortunate that fares are so razor thin, but that's the hard reality.

 

[aewanabe]

On the flip side.. what is necessary to be a Commercial pilot. 18 years in the world and passing a 4 hour checkride. There are plenty of pilots out there that never even graduated high school.. mind you college. So, simply put, there is a large percentage of the population that can do this, and it is an attractive job, so there is a large percentage of people that want to do this.

The simple fact of the matter is being a pro pilot is not a "professional" position. It is skilled labor. Same amount of talent as a welder or an electrician. As long as that is the case the pay will be that of skilled labor(quite respectable but nothing to get rich on).


cale

Hey dumbass chickenhawk RG driver:

You were actually making sense until you threw these 2 paragraphs of BS in. First of all, this thread is by and large referring to airline pilots, people flying your sorry ass and your miserable family around. Find me an airline pilot who "never graduated high school". Just because any kid can obtain a commercial pilot certificate is not the same as saying any moron can also become an airline pilot. There's a whole ton of weeding out, both by the career itself and the screening process, between receiving that "Commercial Pilot" license and getting the congratulations letter from your first regional. I believe the figure is that LESS THAN 10 PERCENT of all commercial pilot certificate-holders become actually employed at the 121 level.

Second, your idiotic comparison to skilled manual labor trades. In reality, those trades probably require MORE hand-eye coordination than landing my RJ in a crosswind. But, once again, you're one of those idiots that thinks button-pushing and stick-and-rudder defines piloting. The true worth of our profession is in the hundreds of decisions we make on a DAILY basis, in an ever-changing tactical situation. (ATC and WX). Not even getting into the rare times when our actions take on life-or-death implications.

You must be one of those jackasses who flew a 172RG and thought "Hey, the wheels go up-and-down on this thing. It's just like an airliner. I'm such a stud now" and decided you know everything about flying. Do us all a favor. If you're trying to break into the industry, don't. With an attitude like yours you may pass a commercial checkride but you'll never be a professional. And if you're not in the industry, STFU.

 

[cale42]

Wow.. it's my the first time on flightinfo that I've ever been personally attacked by someone who has never met me, yet presumes to know my entire story based on one post I made... I finally feel like I really belong on the board now.


Let me clear up a couple points here. First of all the generalizations I made about getting a commercial pilot certificate were just that.. about getting the certificate, not about being an airline pilot. When I used the term pro pilot I was referring to all commercial certificate holders, not just airline pilots. While I agree that what makes an airline pilot any good is their ability to make timely decisions in an everchanging environment with minimal information, I still feel that there are too many people who make it in the aviation world that simply do not have the ability. My point was not that airline pilots should not be professionals, simply that the entry requirements do not force that issue enough. As most doctors will tell you, getting that MD is the first step towards being a doctor.. much like the commercial certificate is the first step towards being an airline pilot. From there in many ways the careers are similar, starting at the bottom, and proving yourself day in and day out to different people that you can cut in the harshest of environments. However the ability to clear step 1 just differs so drastically. That said, I'm at the very beginning levels of this career, maybe the whole airline interview process really does weed all the "non-pros" out effectively enough, and I just haven't experienced that.

I hate to stoop to having to defend myself in a post, but I feel I was so unfairly attacked by aewanabe that I need to. Three things, 1. the very first thing I said upon passing my commercial checkride was "holy crap, I have so much to learn before I could ever fly a jet" I have no delusions of grandeur about the similarities between a Cessna Cutlass and an airliner and I still don't understand how any one could jump right to a jet or big turboprop with 250 hours and a commerical cert. 2. I worked in a consulting position that had difficult entry requirements for 2.5 years and there was no question it was a "professional" position so I have no qualms about my ability to be a professional. Lastly aewanabe, I love to fly and have every intention of making it in the airline industry so I'm afraid your stuck with me and my "attitude" although I'm still a little unsure what that attitude is.

cale

 

[Indypilot]

"If every airline were to increase the cost of each round trip ticket by ONLY $10, you could give the whole flight crew a $1-3/hr raise and vastly increase revenue for the airline. If a passenger decides not to travel because of an extra $10 attached to their ticket, then I don't think the airline should want them anyways."


Here is where the problem lies. First of all, airlines can't collude, so this would be hard to do. There will be one airline that doesn't raise its prices, and everyone else will suffer because of it.

Next point, a $10 raise in ticket prices will LOWER revenue for the airline as most airlines are on the very elastic point of the demand curve. You can raise prices by $10 and get and extra 2M in revenue, but you would lose 3M in total business because of the increase in price. That would make the airline lose an extra 1M.

But lets suppose that all airlines could raise ticket prices by $10. supply and demand dictates that the overall demand for the industry would go down. This means each and every airline has the above happen. What that does mean is you could give a raise to most of your pilots, but at the expense of furloughing the bottom 1/4.

Listen, I think the rates are too low, but fixing that isn't as simple as raising ticket prices. You need a shift in the demand curve for the entire industry for problems to start going away. Right now we are just moving up and down the demand curve, passengers are returning to flying, but why, lower prices. Until the public returns to wanting to pay $500 for a one way ticket, nothing is going to change. The only other way to fix the problem is to create a shortage of pilots by erecting huge barriers to entry. The problem with this, is that it will cost many pilots their jobs, and it also takes a long time for those changes to take effect. With the way the economics of it works right now, you could have a lot of pilots making little, or few pilots making a lot. Which is right? who knows. All I can say is if you really don't like it, go become a desk jockey and make more.

 

[aewanabe]

Wow.. it's my the first time on flightinfo that I've ever been personally attacked by someone who has never met me, yet presumes to know my entire story based on one post I made... I finally feel like I really belong on the board now.

cale

Yes, you do really belong now. Congratulations.

I apologize for the tone of my post. Your original post sounded like you were saying the only price of entry to the "airline world" was 40K and the ability to earn a Commercial Certificate. That point of view tends to severely piss me off; regardless I don't think you quite deserved the full amount of venom and wrath in my response, so again I apologize.

Your reply makes it sound much more likely that you do actually "get it". I hope so. PLEASE do not sell yourself or the profession short as you work towards your goal of being an "airline pilot".... there are many other people all too willing to do that for you. In the meantime, good luck. Enjoy the Cutlass while you're in it.... it's a pretty decent airplane for its role. I was always disappointed that Cessna didn't include any of the RGs when they started producing new aircraft in 1997. Enough rambling now... time for more coffee!

 

[BoilerUP]

While everyone makes valid points, I still find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that airlines will lose passengers if they raise ticket prices $10/round trip. Once again, if a passenger isn't willing to fork over $10 extra bucks to fly across the country, do you really want them as a passenger?

The industry doesn't need full-blown collusion on fares, what it needs is for NWA and the others out there to quit low-balling everybody's small fare increases.

Supply and demand is an essential part of economics, but so is bringing in enough revenue to cover costs(priority #1), while making a profit (#2).

Like I said, I don't have all the answers and I'm not a bean counter. I think the fares of the late 90s-early 2000s were ridiculous and drove passengers away, but I think the fares of today are doing little to stem the loss of red ink. It all seems so simple...

 

[sttretch15]

I'm sure I'm gonna get my rear lit on fire for saying this.. but what the hey. Until the levels of education and skill required to be a professional pilot match what is required of other professional fields the matching pay will not exist. Why do doctors and lawyers make so much money? Because they went through 4 years of undergrad training, where they excelled, they were smart enough to get the GMAT or LSAT scores to get into medical/law school and the busted their butts for several more years finishing school and being at the bottom of the totem pole as a resident or an associate. It is an extrememly small percentage of the population that is even capable of this, and of that only a few of the capable ones want to do it.

On the flip side.. what is necessary to be a Commercial pilot. 18 years in the world and passing a 4 hour checkride. There are plenty of pilots out there that never even graduated high school.. mind you college. So, simply put, there is a large percentage of the population that can do this, and it is an attractive job, so there is a large percentage of people that want to do this.

The simple fact of the matter is being a pro pilot is not a "professional" position. It is skilled labor. Same amount of talent as a welder or an electrician. As long as that is the case the pay will be that of skilled labor(quite respectable but nothing to get rich on).

Sure you can argue that pilots have more responsibility.. human lives in their hands and what not.. and that is probably true. However until the entry requirements to be a pro pilot is drastically raised thus reducing the number of pilots(supply and demand here folks) the wages will stay where they are.

Do you think doctors would get paid so much if everyone and their mother could get an MD by spending 40K and a year or 2 of their lives... I highly doubt it.

Just my $.02

cale

You are right man. If I could reach through this computer.... I personally worked darn hard to become a pilot. Sure it can be done quickly to attain you ratings but that is a tiny piece of the puzzle. What major airline will touch a pilot without at least a BS or an associates. I worked hard for my BS and have aspirations of a Masters. To get to the regionals just to start is difficult enough, just to gain enough experience and flight time. That is what airlines hire is experience. When you get on a 747 or even the smallest 1900. Who is responsible for every life on that airplane?? hmm The captain, and to some degree the First Officer. That is the biggest part of the job. The captain is the final authority as to the operation and safety of that aircraft. That is a kind of responsibility unseen in any other field that I can think of. So before you shoot your mouth off think about it. I respect the fields of doctors and lawyers, i coulda been one if i felt like sitting at a desk all day. I like my office now thank you. Great view. But it takes a special kind of person to be a successful career pilot. We get paid lousy enough for our lifestyle in the regionals and soon unfoutunately it looks like one won't make much at the majors for long. Personally if someone is responsible for my life when the %^it hits that fan... I want to be well taken care of. Being a professional pilot is an entirely different thing than having a CPL. Any yahoo can get a CPL true. But a professional pilot it does not make

 

[WhiteCloud]

We'll never get that $2.00 raise as long as the federal government thinks it can get it in the form of a tax of some kind. Our industry is being taxed into oblivion. We need to publicize how much of each consumer dollar goes to taxes.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

The blame shouldnt be placed upon the pilots of any seniority, but the system itself. Have anyone heard of mom'n'pop med schools? How about mom'n'pop law schools? Dentist school? Nursing?....Have anyone gone to a hospital where in the back of it, one can find, say...... Leading Edge Medical Training Inc. Thats what weird about flight training. There are no test to take in order to gain entrance to learn. Anybody can learn, and as long as you can keep coming up with the money, you will eventually make it. There are no limit to the supply of pilots, and managment know that. I'd say we should keep the flight training providers to military and formal flight schools approved by some sort of a porfessional standard association. One can still learn to fly at the mom and pops, just not getting an ATP.

 

[BoilerUP]

The blame shouldnt be placed upon the pilots of any seniority, but the system itself. Have anyone heard of mom'n'pop med schools? How about mom'n'pop law schools? Dentist school? Nursing?....Have anyone gone to a hospital where in the back of it, one can find, say...... Leading Edge Medical Training Inc. Thats what weird about flight training. There are no test to take in order to gain entrance to learn. Anybody can learn, and as long as you can keep coming up with the money, you will eventually make it. There are no limit to the supply of pilots, and managment know that. I'd say we should keep the flight training providers to military and formal flight schools approved by some sort of a porfessional standard association. One can still learn to fly at the mom and pops, just not getting an ATP.

Once again, one of the most socialist, elitiest things I have ever read.

So people can learn at the "mom 'n pops" but they can't get an ATP there. Fair enough. Last time I checked, most pilots let "THE MAN" pay for their ATP in the form of an upgrade. So the "mom 'n pops", the scourge of this profession, still pump out commercial pilots able to hold jobs with regionals and 135 operators. Your solution has solved nothing.

Would you advocate those schools not being able to train towards Commercial certificates, then? Would we require all new-hire airline pilots to hold an ATP? Talk about driving the cost of aviation training through the roof; have you taken a serious look lately at any of the large 141 schools out there (FSI, Pan Am, Delta Connection, etc)? They are RIDICULOUSLY overpriced for what you get. This would cause the people with deep pockets to have an even better shot at getting ahead of the broke-azz who can't afford the big shiny school.

You have an idea, which is great, but look at the big picture - that wouldn't do anything to help the situation. Short of unions growing a pair and standing firm and the tightening of training standards (within the PTS, but most importantly within indoc), I don't see a solution to the problem.

As long as Flying magazine has glossy color ads that say "Shortage of airline pilots!" and the myth that all airline pilots work 7 days a month for 250K continues to perpetuate, we'll have this issue.

 

[:-)]

As long as Flying magazine has glossy color ads that say "Shortage of airline pilots!" and the myth that all airline pilots work 7 days a month for 250K continues to perpetuate, we'll have this issue.

I first obtained a PPL for pleasure, so I am slightly different from those who started out with the intention of flying professionally. When I decided to try my hand at the profession, I knew going in that I couldn't do the professional pilot gig if it was going to take a hundred grand investment to make a ten grand return. The only way I could justify the investment was the knowledge that I could eventually earn a BIG wage. That doesn't look possible for todays beginners. BTW, don't try to guess my age, but I spent less than $10 grand for PPL to MEI/CFII

I still want to know if you guys think that beginners will still flock to the profession now that top wages have taken massive cuts. When I started, I never really assumed that I could make $250/hour as a UAL 747 Captain, but I knew that doing so was possible. I might still make that seat, but I've been doing this a long time. Now, it seems likely that a beginner might never make it to the left seat of a whale; and even if he could, the money's not going to be there. If you can't get to the big money, why start the journey?

Hobbes

 

[pilotyip]

Left seat of whale easy

We have a former DA-20 Captain, with a short tour at NWA as a DC-9 F/O (hire summer 01), in his early 30's, who is in seniority for a whale Captain's job at a cargo outfit. The whale left seat is available int'l flying, and achievable for the beginner. Therefore, it is obtainable for those who like to fly for the sake of flying. As stated before, if you like to fly you will enjoy a career flying, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed.

 

[:-)]

We have a former DA-20 Captain, with a short tour at NWA as a DC-9 F/O (hire summer 01), in his early 30's, who is in seniority for a whale Captain's job at a cargo outfit. The whale left seat is available int'l flying, and achievable for the beginner. Therefore, it is obtainable for those who like to fly for the sake of flying. As stated before, if you like to fly you will enjoy a career flying, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed.

I'm surprised that a Naval aviator such as yourself has the same reading comprehension trouble as do way too many others.

Your response has nothing to do with my question. I still want to know how many people who are currently NON-PILOTS will enter the profession now that compensation has tanked. I'm sure that you know young people who are in line for whale Captain, but they are already in the game. I want to know about people who are not currently in the game.

 

[vetteracer]

IPO76 This made my whole day!!

Thanks.


Quote
Originally posted by TopGun-MAV
i want to be an rj fo (they are cool). who's the best company to work for? will mesa hire. i'm experinecd in the airline industry, i have over 400tt most of it turbine. i think i have masterd the be1900, time to move on.

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

"Your response has nothing to do with my question. I still want to know how many people who are currently NON-PILOTS will enter the profession now that compensation has tanked. I'm sure that you know young people who are in line for whale Captain, but they are already in the game. I want to know about people who are not currently in the game."

I would say the number is dropping. The flight schools that I poke in once in a while are down with active students. I did most of my training in the mid nineties and there were many students and 4 or 5 times the instructors at these schools. It would be interesting to see the enrolment numbers and "change of major" numbers at UND and other pilot universities. I graduated from a large state university with a new aviation program. I was one of the first to graduate from the program. The instructors and professors boast 250K salaries at the top airlines. And, RJ jobs are there for graduates. They sell education with dreams of great pay. Someone needs to bring these schools into the 21st century. But their marketing department would never allow that.

Things will change and I predict a pilot shortage in the next ten years. The vacuum will be filled quickly so if you are in the profession hold on and catch the wave when it comes by. People are leaving aviation and they are throwing in the towel during training. I have 4 or 5 friends that have just under 135 mins that are fed up and are tossing in the towel for other careers. They figure they should start over now while they are young. So out of my circle 1/3 of the commercial pilots are done with aviation. The other 1/3rd are hobby flight instructors. And they are giving the lowdown to all their students, or for anyone for that matter.

 

[pilotyip]

2007 hiring boom

..<) If I could read I would have become a USAF pilot. The hiring boom will return in June of 2007. (see previous threads) and those young pilots who skip college and go straight into flying and have a 1000 hours of turbine time in 2007 will get head of the line perference. We have the 22 year old pilot, no degree 2000 hours 1500 MEL, 700 turbin, 250 turbin PIC, and he will be logging TJ PIC in 2006. When he is 26 he will have alot of choices. Pilots are pursuing the wrong career path with the 4 yr degree, CFI, regional, route. Go cargo! If this board had been around in 1993, when the famous "Will fly for food" posters were being displayed, everyone said there is no future in flying, the glory days are over, we will never see the boom of 1988 again. Well the guys who started flying in 1993 had alot of choice by 1997. If you want to be a pilot start flying, stay away from girls and you will find a good job in the future.

 

[BoilerUP]

..<) If I could read I would have become a USAF pilot. The hiring boom will return in June of 2007. (see previous threads) and those young pilots who skip college and go straight into flying and have a 1000 hours of turbine time in 2007 will get head of the line perference. We have the 22 year old pilot, no degree 2000 hours 1500 MEL, 700 turbin, 250 turbin PIC, and he will be logging TJ PIC in 2006. When he is 26 he will have alot of choices. Pilots are pursuing the wrong career path with the 4 yr degree, CFI, regional, route. Go cargo! If this board had been around in 1993, when the famous "Will fly for food" posters were being displayed, everyone said there is no future in flying, the glory days are over, we will never see the boom of 1988 again. Well the guys who started flying in 1993 had alot of choice by 1997. If you want to be a pilot start flying, stay away from girls and you will find a good job in the future.

Said pilot will have alot of choices, provided the companies he applies with don't require a bachelor's degree. Hope he doesn't want on with FedEx or UPS. That having been said, I'm sure there are quality jobs out there for people with those qualifications, just not the "big names".

As you have often said, college degrees don't make for better pilots, and on that point I agree. But lets not discount the benefit of a diploma...

 

[:-)]

Quote

People are leaving aviation and they are throwing in the towel during training. I have 4 or 5 friends that have just under 135 mins that are fed up and are tossing in the towel for other careers. They figure they should start over now while they are young. So out of my circle 1/3 of the commercial pilots are done with aviation. The other 1/3rd are hobby flight instructors. And they are giving the lowdown to all their students, or for anyone for that matter.

Thank ya, Thank ya verry much. I've been away from flight schools so long, I no longer know anyone working for one. Neither do I have any network amongst the beginners. Thanks for your insight into their present attitudes.

I wish that we could all make a living flying airplanes, but the oversupply now is making for a tough career.

Again, Thank you.
Hobbes