How GK made me feel today!

[ArcadiaMaxima]

So you are willing to take DOH with the seat your seniority can hold....correct. Not sure what year you were but if it is post 2000ish you can give up your seat....so it is not about the $$ but the senority. Right? Take DoH and be placed back to FO for majority of your junior captains....TY are you cool with that? No seat/pay/base protection.

 

[bluepost]

Look at the proposed list. It's plain as day.

With the exception of those at the bottom (0%-0% = 0 % loss) and a handful of guys at the very top of our list (who had a 20% loss) the loss most of us are looking at is 32% which translates into about 4 years' loss. We're integrated with pilots hired 3-4 years after our DOH. That's not acceptable.

I don't know who you were referencing as having an application on file, maybe you should check your facts more thoroughly, but then you wouldn't really have anything to post, would you?

That all might mean something if this was a MERGER....but as GK just reminded you, it isn't. You were bought and they were going to give you 50K-70k to POSSIBLY add one leg to your commute, or to miss Xmas for a couple years. Meanwhile you would be working less and have access to more bases.

Well you may get your dream of protecting your seniority to be able to work less.....A LOT less.

This is going down as one of the biggest pilot screw ups in the history of aviation. Snooki makes better life decisions than some of the AT guys.

 

[CF34-3B1]

So basically, ALPA is saying the arbitrator is going to look at all the facts, all the numbers, all the career expectations, and say "Yeah, you guys clearly deserve a pay and benifit raise worth over $2mil individually AND weekends off." ??

 

[Ty Webb]

So you are willing to take DOH with the seat your seniority can hold....correct. Not sure what year you were but if it is post 2000ish you can give up your seat....so it is not about the $$ but the senority. Right? Take DoH and be placed back to FO for majority of your junior captains....TY are you cool with that? No seat/pay/base protection.

Don't know why you guys aren't aware of this, but our Union proposed this at the table. SWA mgmnt didn't like it because of the training costs. Talk to your NC.

 

[Ty Webb]

That all might mean something if this was a MERGER....but as GK just reminded you, it isn't. You were bought and they were going to give you 50K-70k to POSSIBLY add one leg to your commute, or to miss Xmas for a couple years. Meanwhile you would be working less and have access to more bases.

Well you may get your dream of protecting your seniority to be able to work less.....A LOT less.

This is going down as one of the biggest pilot screw ups in the history of aviation. Snooki makes better life decisions than some of the AT guys.

This type of post is all bluster and trash-talking. There is nothing worth responding to here. When I read this, all I see is one unhappy
guy who thinks that wresting seniority away from another pilot is going to make him happy. . . . . it ain't.

 

[vv100]

Look at the proposed list. It's plain as day.

With the exception of those at the bottom (0%-0% = 0 % loss) and a handful of guys at the very top of our list (who had a 20% loss) the loss most of us are looking at is 32% which translates into about 4 years' loss. We're integrated with pilots hired 3-4 years after our DOH. That's not acceptable.

I don't know who you were referencing as having an application on file, maybe you should check your facts more thoroughly, but then you wouldn't really have anything to post, would you?

You guys really ought to go public with this injustice. Full page ad in the McPaper bought with your ALPO dues. You could complain about losing your precious position within your crappy regional while increasing your pay $7000 a month. While your at it you could bitch about getting a "Cadillac Health Insurance Plan" as well. Don't forget to whine about the Profit Sharing! Be sure to emphasize the strength of your union. Unions are BIG right now! I'm sure 15 MILLION+ fellow Americans out of work would really feel your pain.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, I've got no dog in this fight so I'm not going to spend any time digging up the details of the acquisition. I'm also not a Southwest fan; I'm just stating what I see as the likely course of action. If you've got something in writing that prevents Southwest from taking that course of action, post it.

As far as a fair shake, I think the negotiated package was fair. Again, I've got no skin in the game and the outcome will not have any effect on me.

Yeah, Andy, it's in our Section 1 languauge, a side letter signed by SWA, the 4 Party Process Agreement, and of course M-B as well. It's all been posted here at one time or another over the past 15 months or so.

 

[Ty Webb]

You guys really ought to go public with this injustice. Full page ad in the McPaper bought with your ALPO dues. You could complain about losing your precious position within your crappy regional while increasing your pay $7000 a month. While your at it you could bitch about getting a "Cadillac Health Insurance Plan" as well. Don't forget to whine about the Profit Sharing! Be sure to emphasize the strength of your union. Unions are BIG right now! I'm sure 15 MILLION+ fellow Americans out of work would really feel your pain.

More trash-talk and nonsense. Sorry, man, I have way too nice of a life to spend it arguing over stuff like this.

 

[Tripower455]

More trash-talk and nonsense. Sorry, man, I have way too nice of a life to spend it arguing over stuff like this.

Your post count on FI suggests otherwise!

 

[vv100]

More trash-talk and nonsense. Sorry, man, I have way too nice of a life to spend it arguing over stuff like this.

This "stuff" would be your inflated sense of self entitlement.

The majority of people in this country are really frackin tired of the mentality. You should be too. If you aren't then this is no place for you.

 

[The Victors]

Yeah, Andy, it's in our Section 1 languauge, a side letter signed by SWA, the 4 Party Process Agreement, and of course M-B as well. It's all been posted here at one time or another over the past 15 months or so.

There is nothing in M/B that actually guarantees employment. Just saying. The SL is also void now. Again, just saying.

 

[Andy]

Yeah, Andy, it's in our Section 1 languauge, a side letter signed by SWA, the 4 Party Process Agreement, and of course M-B as well. It's all been posted here at one time or another over the past 15 months or so.

Perhaps I was too obtuse for you? I wrote, ' If you've got something in writing that prevents Southwest from taking that course of action, post it.' Was that not clear enough for you? Let me be more specific. Post links supporting your view that Southwest can't shrink AirTran to zero assets.

I wasted a bit of time and found this SLOA: http://www.swapaluv.com/505

I don't see anything in there that doesn't allow Southwest to shrink AirTran out of existence.

 

[FIREMAN]

You AT guys keep spouting the same BS.

32% ALPA talking point. All real world BS.

The first 1600 SWA guys won't be touched. They were here before you existed as an airline.

So, even your number 1 pilot will end up 1601 out of 8000.

That's a 20% 'haircut'. For your #1 guy. With varying % for the rest.

Really what do you want? You had an opportunity to receive a financial windfall.

Especially coming from a guy who has an application on file at Southwest.

Really???

Wrong, the AT #1 DOH is 9/23/93 that would put him at 849

 

[bluepost]

This type of post is all bluster and trash-talking. There is nothing worth responding to here. When I read this, all I see is one unhappy
guy who thinks that wresting seniority away from another pilot is going to make him happy. . . . . it ain't.

I don't have skin the the game....I'm not SWA. I have friends at both, and from the outside without SWAPA or ALPA rose colored glasses on this was a huge miscalculation.

What is your improved seniority going to get you after arbitration? SWA can now shrink ATL to whatever it wants as quickly as it wants, many of your guys will STILL be flushed out to other bases....but now without the pay protections.

 

[redflyer65]

many of your guys will STILL be flushed out to other bases....but now without the pay protections.

I'd say that's kind where things stand now.

 

[USAFftrplt]

I don't have skin the the game....I'm not SWA. I have friends at both, and from the outside without SWAPA or ALPA rose colored glasses on this was a huge miscalculation.

What is your improved seniority going to get you after arbitration? SWA can now shrink ATL to whatever it wants as quickly as it wants, many of your guys will STILL be flushed out to other bases....but now without the pay protections.

Oh wait someone else from the outside looking in like me can read between the lines too!

Amen brother!

I hope the best for both sides.

DOnt be a fool and jump off the bridge cause the dummy in front of you did.

 

[laker4284]

Might want to bone up on what events trigger M-B, Andy.

I'll also venture that the AAI pilots aren't going to be the PITA, if there is one. . . . All we want is a fair shake; a 32% seniority haircut isn't a fair shake. There is a Process Agreement in place, everyone just needs to follow the Agreement.

Looking from the outside in, it sure seems that getting a massive raise in pay scale, job security, benefits not presently available to you and getting anything even remotely close to DOH seems like a windfall. Losing 32% seems like a winner after factoring in all of the above.

I've been around the block and SWA CEOs generally don't play patty-cake with opponents. Muse/Transtar was crushed and flushed. Midway was crush and flused. Morris was bought and its employees interviewed and not all hired (except for the pilots, in deference to SWAPA).ATA was picked clean. Frontier was let go to Republic when their pilots started to play gamesand, boy, are those pilots in sad shape now. The list of those who played games and lost is long.

Now Air Tran?


I read nothing in the law that says an airline cannot be acquired, run separately, and slowly dismantled. It's what TWA did to Ozark years ago.

SWA has just pulled the $ plug. Their CEO is saying things that imply good things are not around the corner. Yet you think you're just looking for fairness? I'd say you had fairness and you flushed it. Ball's in Southwest's court. Here's hopin' you smart guys didn't pull a Frontier move.

 

[Sacha]

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Looking from the outside in, it sure seems that getting a massive raise in pay scale, job security, benefits not presently available to you and getting anything even remotely close to DOH seems like a windfall. Losing 32% seems like a winner after factoring in all of the above.

I've been around the block and SWA CEOs generally don't play patty-cake with opponents. Muse/Transtar was crushed and flushed. Midway was crush and flused. Morris was bought and its employees interviewed and not all hired (except for the pilots, in deference to SWAPA).ATA was picked clean. Frontier was let go to Republic when their pilots started to play gamesand, boy, are those pilots in sad shape now. The list of those who played games and lost is long.

Now Air Tran?


I read nothing in the law that says an airline cannot be acquired, run separately, and slowly dismantled. It's what TWA did to Ozark years ago.

SWA has just pulled the $ plug. Their CEO is saying things that imply good things are not around the corner. Yet you think you're just looking for fairness? I'd say you had fairness and you flushed it. Ball's in Southwest's court. Here's hopin' you smart guys didn't pull a Frontier move.

Yup..... Say.....where is the ice cream dork?

 

[Jolly Roger]

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Yup..... Say.....where is the ice cream dork?

Oh, Kharma...... I was going to invite him to my MMA club for a little training, he would have a new found appreciation for ice cream I can assure you (Kharma, you are invited, I'm heading out there tonight, in fact). I love you AT guys, but the longer this goes, the shorter your leverage arm becomes... by magnitudes. Ask the United/Cont guys how well the SLI is going. We at SWA have nothing but time; the pay, conditions, protections, you name it..... are ours.

 

[Andy]

I don't have skin the the game....I'm not SWA. I have friends at both, and from the outside without SWAPA or ALPA rose colored glasses on this was a huge miscalculation.

What is your improved seniority going to get you after arbitration? SWA can now shrink ATL to whatever it wants as quickly as it wants, many of your guys will STILL be flushed out to other bases....but now without the pay protections.

Looking from the outside in, it sure seems that getting a massive raise in pay scale, job security, benefits not presently available to you and getting anything even remotely close to DOH seems like a windfall. Losing 32% seems like a winner after factoring in all of the above.

I've been around the block and SWA CEOs generally don't play patty-cake with opponents. Muse/Transtar was crushed and flushed. Midway was crush and flused. Morris was bought and its employees interviewed and not all hired (except for the pilots, in deference to SWAPA).ATA was picked clean. Frontier was let go to Republic when their pilots started to play gamesand, boy, are those pilots in sad shape now. The list of those who played games and lost is long.

Now Air Tran?


I read nothing in the law that says an airline cannot be acquired, run separately, and slowly dismantled. It's what TWA did to Ozark years ago.

SWA has just pulled the $ plug. Their CEO is saying things that imply good things are not around the corner. Yet you think you're just looking for fairness? I'd say you had fairness and you flushed it. Ball's in Southwest's court. Here's hopin' you smart guys didn't pull a Frontier move.

It's nice to be able to look at these SLIs from the outside and no skin in the game - your judgment is less clouded.
I've still got the CAL/UAL SLI but that won't be for quite a while (things are moving glacially) and I'm on furlough so my expectations are to be at the bottom of the list. When the topic of CAL/UAL SLI came up on this board, I suggested all active pilots be integrated by relative seniority and all furloughees also integrated by relative seniority, based on a snapshot from the merger announcement date. Some CAL guys were up in arms with me suggesting that their furloughees get dovetailed with UAL furloughees; they felt that all of the CAL furloughees should be put in front of UAL furloughees. Whatever. Not worth getting my panties in a bunch over 70 numbers.

I hope the Trannies are smart enough to take the second (lesser) offer because I don't expect for there to be a third offer.
Note this interview with GK: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/08/gary-kelly-talks-about-airtran-1.html
Specifically:

So at this point we'll move forward. There is a process agreement in place that allows for mediated sessions and then ultimately binding arbitration if we merge the two airlines. We're going to take a step back and evaluate all of our operations.

I bolded the operative word. If you read the entire article, GK is telling the Trannies that they're going to get it sans lubrication. There was nothing cryptic in his statements. It sounds like they plan on separate operating certificates until AirTran's leases expire and then *poof* back to one operating certificate.