How do you file a complaint for a controller error?

[glasspilot]

You sound like you need a vacation. Maybe you were right here. Truth be told, I get the feeling that a major bit of facts are missing from your story. Even if what you say is true I'd question not taking the clearance for something as silly as driftdown unless it specifically states in your GOM that you are not allowed to deviate off course for it. What's the SESC for an ERJ anyway? 20K? Where were you that 20K would be a problem?

Plus, you report having 5,000 hours on your profile. That's right where regional PICs start to think they know it all. I'm not saying that's you...but you sound the part.

Relax and do as controllers tell you, unless they are way off base and that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

[A Squared]

You sound like you need a vacation. Maybe you were right here. Truth be told, I get the feeling that a major bit of facts are missing from your story. Even if what you say is true I'd question not taking the clearance for something as silly as driftdown unless it specifically states in your GOM that you are not allowed to deviate off course for it. What's the SESC for an ERJ anyway? 20K? Where were you that 20K would be a problem?

Plus, you report having 5,000 hours on your profile. That's right where regional PICs start to think they know it all. I'm not saying that's you...but you sound the part.

Relax and do as controllers tell you, unless they are way off base and that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Bull$hit.

He was exactly right.

Here's what the AIM has to say about the situation:

AIM 4-4-1a. A clearance issued by ATC is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions. An ATC clearance means an authorization by ATC, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified conditions within controlled airspace. IT IS NOT AUTHORIZATION FOR A PILOT TO DEVIATE FROM ANY RULE, REGULATION, OR MINIMUM ALTITUDE NOR TO CONDUCT UNSAFE OPERATION OF THE AIRCRAFT.

AIM4-4-1 b. 14 CFR Section 91.3(a) states: "The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." If ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy, IT IS THE PILOT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE.


The Caps are added by the FAA, so it's probably a point they want to emphasize.


Here's what 7110.65T (controller Handbook) has to say:

from Chapter 2, section 1 2-1-1:

NOTE-
Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order.

something as silly as driftdown

Oh yeah? You got a official FAA reference on which regulations are "silly" and which aren't? That would be handy. Are the "silly" ones less regulatory that the non-silly ones?

Thing is, thre are a bunch of regulatons in 121 and other places which I think are a bit conservative, and are designed to prevent a situation which had a very low probability of happening. Doesn't matter, I am still required to abide by them.

If you had a fed on you jumpseat who was paying attention, and caught the driftdown violation, the fact that ATC asked you to violate that wouldn't be much of a defense in the enforcemet proceedings. They're probably refer you to 91.3 and the advice in the AIM.

They might let you off if you told them you thought that particular regulation was "silly", that's a pretty compelling defense.


Go ahead, tell me in your best condescending tone that 9500 hours is where pilots start to think they know everything.

 

[glasspilot]

What a co-inky-dink! 9500 hours is where pilots start to sympathize with 5000 hour pilots...

Seriously, i don't know. The story sounds weak. Like I said it sounds like some major facts have been left out. As to drift down: the CRJ could hold 20K single engine. Where was he that his ERJ needed special attention to the point of telling ATC to screw off?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but from his tone my "BS" detector is starting to chirp. That's all.

 

[A Squared]

What a co-inky-dink! 9500 hours is where pilots start to sympathize with 5000 hour pilots...

:laugh:

As to drift down: the CRJ could hold 20K single engine. Where was he that his ERJ needed special attention to the point of telling ATC to screw off?

Don't know a thing about ERJ drift downs. He says at his weight and temp, his charts would put him below 16800. I have no basis for questioning that.

 

[BushwickBill]

Yeah, I don't have to give my initials over the freq. If you have a problem with the controller then get the phone number, call them when you shut down, talk to the supervisor. They have to put a "Q" in the daily log meaning QA meaning the QA specialists then have to pull the tape and investigate. Very few controllers are out to get pilots...

Here is my mentality....Pilot screws up.....nothing bad happens, I don't even say anything as not to belittle them on freq or get a supervisor involved. I screw up....nothing bad happens....I hope you do the same. Pilot screws up...I loose seperation....then we have a problem.

Uh huh.... really? That's not how I remember you. In fact not only did you belittle me on freq, you came down to the flight school to pick on me in person - in front of my coworkers.

I'm glad you went away, I hope you don't come back and I hope your MK propaganda campaign goes well. If anything you've done a good job fooling yourself.

 

[glasspilot]

Don't know a thing about ERJ drift downs. He says at his weight and temp, his charts would put him below 16800. I have no basis for questioning that.

Me either. Just the tone of his posts. I've met many an eager beaver that think they have it all figured out only to find the MORA was at 12K and it was never a problem or the ISA -5 made it fine or whatever. Like I said, it's only the tone of his posts that make me suspect.

I guess it's also the location. Ya know, the "how do I screw ATC" thread has me put off too.

 

[Nevets]

You sound like you need a vacation. Maybe you were right here. Truth be told, I get the feeling that a major bit of facts are missing from your story. Even if what you say is true I'd question not taking the clearance for something as silly as driftdown unless it specifically states in your GOM that you are not allowed to deviate off course for it. What's the SESC for an ERJ anyway? 20K? Where were you that 20K would be a problem?

Plus, you report having 5,000 hours on your profile. That's right where regional PICs start to think they know it all. I'm not saying that's you...but you sound the part.

Relax and do as controllers tell you, unless they are way off base and that doesn't seem to be the case here.

You telling me? I do need a vacation, a Permanent Vacation! If you read the original thread along with this one, all the pertinent facts are here.

Driftdown is not anything that is silly! Let me put it this way, if I had your daughter in the back of my airplane, would you want me to think that drfitdown regulations are silly? Not only does it say in my FOM but it also says it in my Ops Specs and the FARs that I'm not to deviate from a driftdown course.

This particular flight, my weezbag ERJ was heavy, it was hot, I was dispatched Anti-Ice On and I can't remember what ISA+? seeing that it was summer as well, and I happen to be in the grid MORA that has Mt Whitney! I remember asking the FO to triple check it after I'd tripled checked it.

Once the ERC got a hold of the tapes and radar date, they had our engineering department look at the information and agreed that I was on a portion of the flight plan that was under driftdown restrictions and that the dispatch release, position and MORA didn't allow me to deviate from the plan until the fix I had told the controller I could start accepting deviations.

I certainly don't know it all and like I said earlier on this thread, I don't have the big picture the controllers have. But I do know my regulations, Ops Specs, FOM, and limitations of my aircraft and I wont accept a clearance that requires me to deviate from any of those things or anything else that I deem unsafe. I owe it to your daughter and the rest of the passengers and people on the ground, and especially my family who I want to go home and see! So don't tell me to relax and do whatever the controller tells me to do because the minute I start deciding which regulations to ignore is the minute I wont be relaxed anymore.

What a co-inky-dink! 9500 hours is where pilots start to sympathize with 5000 hour pilots...

Seriously, i don't know. The story sounds weak. Like I said it sounds like some major facts have been left out. As to drift down: the CRJ could hold 20K single engine. Where was he that his ERJ needed special attention to the point of telling ATC to screw off?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but from his tone my "BS" detector is starting to chirp. That's all.

I was in EMB-145, not a CRJ. I have no idea what their limitations are. I didn't tell ATC to screw off. I offered at least four alternatives. You are off base here.

I also had a chat with the NATCA safety rep of that facility. He was of the same opinion that I am required to accept all ATC instructions. When I asked him what is a pilot so supposed to do if he is at 9,000ft and the controller asks him to maintain 300 kias? He said, well that is different. The only thing different was the regulation the controller is telling you to violate. In both cases, the pilot is required to NOT accept that clearance!

Me either. Just the tone of his posts. I've met many an eager beaver that think they have it all figured out only to find the MORA was at 12K and it was never a problem or the ISA -5 made it fine or whatever. Like I said, it's only the tone of his posts that make me suspect.

I guess it's also the location. Ya know, the "how do I screw ATC" thread has me put off too.

Nope, like I said, I don't pretend to have it all figured out. I've been humbled too many times in the past to think that I have it all figured out. I wasn't looking out to screw ATC. On the contrary, the controller tried to screw me twice. First, by insisting I put my aircraft in an undesired state, and then by not only threatening my livelihood over trying to keep my passengers safe, but actually trying to get my certificate suspended. All because he couldn't beleive some pilot wasn't going to do what he said no matter what. Sorry if I took it personal.

 

[glasspilot]

When you read your own posts do you not see "tone"?

Also, you do admit your gripe here, ligitamite or not, is in the "how do I screw ATC" thread, right?

 

[Nevets]

When you read your own posts do you not see "tone"?

Also, you do admit your gripe here, ligitamite or not, is in the "how do I screw ATC" thread, right?

Yeah, this thread reminded me of my incident and how a controller tried to screw me over twice so I guess I took it personal against him. Like I said, I have a dozen or so friends that are controllers and I respect what they do. As for tone, come on, this is communication of the written form. Give me a break or at least give me the benefit of the doubt.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Deal or no deal

Pilot, former controller, former FAA FSDO Ops Inspector. Give me a call if you need to. I can help you out. I have helped a lot of people out of jams like that. As a FSDO guy I was able to avoid many violations for pilots just by listening to the tapes. 817-691-1910 Bill