How do you file a complaint for a controller error?

[pilothouston123]

Are we really looking to blame each other? I run a flight department with 12 pilots and the best ones are the ones quick to admit when they made a mistake. I feel the primary reason for my advancement is my willingness to admit when I made a mistake and learn and move on.
IMHO controlers are part of the team. There is no way that this is going to work if we don't work together to achive the primary goal. Getting from A to B safely.

 

[Captain4242]

I had a situation a few years ago in which ATC accused me of doing something I did not do. Defending myself on the radio didn't work, and I took a lot of heat for it (both on the radio and here at this forum). Calling the controllers supervisor upon landing cleared the air. I still wanted to file a formal complaint, but decided not to; maybe someone will cut me a break someday.

 

[DFries]

"Say Initials, and Mark Tape" thats a good way to get the ball rolling.....

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

"Say Initials, and Mark Tape" thats a good way to get the ball rolling.....

If someone said that to me I would laugh. I don't have to say my initials. You can get that information through the freedom of information act. We aren't playing each side against each other. The circumstance here is simple. Controller gave them a more then 30' turn onto an ILS so bad controller. The pilots busted an altitude so bad pilot. Controller didn't do anything illegal, just practically rendering the approach useless, but with no loss of separation, and no airspace violations, the controller is free and clear. As for the pilots....well, don't bust your altitude.

 

[Colonel Savage]

How do you "mark the tape"?

 

[Nevets]

I had a situation a few years ago in which ATC accused me of doing something I did not do. Defending myself on the radio didn't work, and I took a lot of heat for it (both on the radio and here at this forum). Calling the controllers supervisor upon landing cleared the air. I still wanted to file a formal complaint, but decided not to; maybe someone will cut me a break someday.

I had a similar situation.
Drift Down Routes

If someone said that to me I would laugh. I don't have to say my initials.

Is that really true? You are not required to give your operating initials if asked by a pilot? Also, are pilots required to copy or call the facility if told to do so by a controller?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I had a similar situation.
Drift Down Routes



Is that really true? You are not required to give your operating initials if asked by a pilot? Also, are pilots required to copy or call the facility if told to do so by a controller?

Yeah, I don't have to give my initials over the freq. If you have a problem with the controller then get the phone number, call them when you shut down, talk to the supervisor. They have to put a "Q" in the daily log meaning QA meaning the QA specialists then have to pull the tape and investigate. Very few controllers are out to get pilots...

Here is my mentality....Pilot screws up.....nothing bad happens, I don't even say anything as not to belittle them on freq or get a supervisor involved. I screw up....nothing bad happens....I hope you do the same. Pilot screws up...I loose seperation....then we have a problem.

 

[DC8Driver]

It wasn't a deal.

A controller made an error, then we made an error and the controller wrote up our error. Later, I found out that the controller left out his error in the report (must have forgot).

If the FSDO comes after us, I want to have a filed complaint that addresses the first error by the controller, since the paperwork doesn't reflect it at this time.

It was not a deal, it was sloppy controller work that caused a lot of confusion.

No problem, except that the controller then got his sup involved and both thought the item that started the cascade was something that didn't need to make it into the report, but the sup filed a report.

Normally, I wouldn't give a flying you-know-what. I don't like filing paperwork. In this case, like a four year-old, "He started it!" Had he not filed, then I wouldn't file. Again, it wasn't a "deal".

I very well may need the backup paperwork, hence the question.

I am currently thinking a letter to the facility manager requesting a review of the circumstances and whether the controller followed the ATC manual might be in order.

Is the ATC manual regulatory? Or is it like the AIM?

If he filed a report, you can bet an Inspector from the FSDO will be calling you. It's up to him what happens next.

 

[JAFI]

The difference here is a Pilot can get a violation and injured or dead. A controller can only be "re-trained" and lose some pay. The whole point is people make mistakes (human nature) but we are in a profession that if we make a mistake - people die. Flying is not brain surgery but a surgeon can only kill one person at a time (a quote I stole from a Check Airman). The pilot many more.

The pilot is the ultimate responsibility for the flight. A controller has responsibility but his/her life is not on the line. Some people should not be flying airplanes and some should not be controllers. The key is to figure out who before the accident.

Your FSDO/CMO can also call QA and get a tape pulled. The tape is erased after 30 days. Don't be late on that call.......

 

[Nevets]

Yeah, I don't have to give my initials over the freq. If you have a problem with the controller then get the phone number, call them when you shut down, talk to the supervisor. They have to put a "Q" in the daily log meaning QA meaning the QA specialists then have to pull the tape and investigate. Very few controllers are out to get pilots...

Here is my mentality....Pilot screws up.....nothing bad happens, I don't even say anything as not to belittle them on freq or get a supervisor involved. I screw up....nothing bad happens....I hope you do the same. Pilot screws up...I loose seperation....then we have a problem.

I only ask because in my situation the controller was sure he was right (he wasn't) by his tone of voice, yet when I asked him to give me his initials so he couldn't weasel his way out of his debacle, he did.

Anyways, you forgot the fourth part in your last paragraph, controller screws up and loses separation, pilot, passengers and people on the ground may die.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I only ask because in my situation the controller was sure he was right (he wasn't) by his tone of voice, yet when I asked him to give me his initials so he couldn't weasel his way out of his debacle, he did.

Anyways, you forgot the fourth part in your last paragraph, controller screws up and loses separation, pilot, passengers and people on the ground may die.

This is true, and if that were to happen bad bad things would happen..example. USAIR and Skywest at LAX.

But I'm talking more along the lines of IFR seperation when I need 3 miles on final and end up with 2.99 or when I need 4 miles behind a 757 and end up with 3.99. The problem is the FAA has microscopes to look at our seperation when us controllers get yard sticks. I can't tell the difference between 2.9 and 3 miles on the RACD yet the FAA can tell the difference between 2.99999999 and 3.0 We need the tools they have but that is a different story.

 

[CX880]

Pilots all know how controllers get pilots violated, but what is the process for it to work the other way? If a controller is caught not following procedure, how does a pilot lodge a formal complaint? Is there a form for ATC that is like the pilot deviation form used against pilots?

Unless you're dead because of their error, what have you got to complain about? Give them a break.

 

[b19]

Until you have spent some time flying in Africa, South America, India, parts of Asia, the Middle East where there are no Brits, The Stans......

You have no idea just how incredibly good, professional, well trained and easy it is to fly in the US. The controllers are here to help. Go fly in the rest of the world and come back with a whole new appreciation for our controllers.

And while I'm on the soapbox please, please quit the childish "blame game, he started it crap", if you don't like an instruction question it, or say unable. If you're far enough ahead of the plane you should be able to expect what's next and know whether or not you can comply.

Sorry if I offended, but just like CRM it's important that we all play nice and work together, you know the stuff we should have learned in kindergarten.

So please no damn paperwork.

 

[Nevets]

And while I'm on the soapbox please, please quit the childish "blame game, he started it crap", if you don't like an instruction question it, or say unable. If you're far enough ahead of the plane you should be able to expect what's next and know whether or not you can comply.

So please no damn paperwork.

This is exactly what I did, told the controller unable due to operational constraints. I knew about it before I took off and knew when I wouldn't have those restrictions at specific point on the flight plan. He would not have it even though I gave him 4 alternatives. Oh well, I got stuck with paperwork and he got reprimanded and caused all the controllers in his center to be "trained."

 

[CX880]

This is exactly what I did, told the controller unable due to operational constraints. I knew about it before I took off and knew when I wouldn't have those restrictions at specific point on the flight plan. He would not have it even though I gave him 4 alternatives. Oh well, I got stuck with paperwork and he got reprimanded and caused all the controllers in his center to be "trained."

You didn't have to report him though, you did get through with the flight did you? Or are u still suck up there trying to come with with solutions??

 

[Nevets]

You didn't have to report him though, you did get through with the flight did you? Or are u still suck up there trying to come with with solutions??

Nope, he tried to violate me for not complying with ATC instructions even though I never accepted it to begin with. I was forced to file an ASAP. I wouldn't have "reported" him if he wouldn't have tried to bully me by telling me either comply or I will file a pilot deviation on you.

 

[JAFI]

A controller cannot "violate" an Airman. He/she can only fill out a report that is forwarded to a FSDO or CMO to be investigated. There are times the "violation" is really an Operational Error by the controller and the FSDO just returns the report with an - No Action - determination. Then the controller is brought back to be retrained......

IMHO you all need to memorize CFR 91.3. As Pilot in Command you may do what ever you need to do to MEET AN EMERGERNCY.

However, if you decide that you need an emergency cold one and land on a street and taxi up to a bar to "Meet That Emergency" you may have to explain that one to a Judge. The "Reasonable Person" concept needs to be met.

 

[Nevets]

A controller cannot "violate" an Airman. He/she can only fill out a report that is forwarded to a FSDO or CMO to be investigated. There are times the "violation" is really an Operational Error by the controller and the FSDO just returns the report with an - No Action - determination. Then the controller is brought back to be retrained......

IMHO you all need to memorize CFR 91.3. As Pilot in Command you may do what ever you need to do to MEET AN EMERGERNCY.

However, if you decide that you need an emergency cold one and land on a street and taxi up to a bar to "Meet That Emergency" you may have to explain that one to a Judge. The "Reasonable Person" concept needs to be met.

Well, those where his words, not mine. Apparently there was no operational error either from what I was told afterward by the ERC. But I guess he found another way to make it work. They told me he was reprimanded for being belligerent on the frequency. I honestly think he was beside mad that I would refuse to take his clearance even after threats to my livelihood. As far as emergency, controller actually asked me if I was declaring an emergency and I said negative. The didn't seem to like that answer either.

 

[JAFI]

Nevets, it sounds like there is more to this controller’s story than you know about. I know of no way a controller can begin enforcement proceedings with out going through Flight Standards (FSDO or CMO). I see many more operational errors than pilot deviations. Making threats is unacceptable.


Controlling aircraft is a stressful, extremely dynamic job that "holds peoples lives in their hand". Remember the controller needs to keep a library of information, regulations, and procedures in his head while keeping situational awareness of many moving objects in 3D. The controller in your situation IMHO needs looked at, a long vacation, and medical attention.

 

[Nevets]

Nevets, it sounds like there is more to this controller’s story than you know about. I know of no way a controller can begin enforcement proceedings with out going through Flight Standards (FSDO or CMO). I see many more operational errors than pilot deviations. Making threats is unacceptable.


Controlling aircraft is a stressful, extremely dynamic job that "holds peoples lives in their hand". Remember the controller needs to keep a library of information, regulations, and procedures in his head while keeping situational awareness of many moving objects in 3D. The controller in your situation IMHO needs looked at, a long vacation, and medical attention.

Trust me, I have great respect for what these radar controllers do day in and day out. And I know they have a bigger picture than I do. I have about a dozen friends who are controllers. I couldn't do that job!

When I called to talk to the supervisor I was just told that this was being reffered to the FSDO for enforcement action. He just threw that out there to threaten me into accepting his illegal (in my operations) clearance. And there didn't end up being an operational error (I have two friends that work in the same area of that center who told me the other side of the story. This controller was just on a power trip and couldn't beleive that a pilot was refusing his clearance. In fact, he even said that to me on the frequency. "I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 25 YEARS AND I'VE NEVER HAD A PILOT NOT ACCEPT MY CLEARANCE!" From what my friends said, he does need a vacation. I hope he made use of some of his leave after being reprimanded because supposedly he was adamant that he was right. That must have been a rude awakening for him to be told that he was not.