How do you file a complaint for a controller error?

[Lrjtcaptain]

I only ask because in my situation the controller was sure he was right (he wasn't) by his tone of voice, yet when I asked him to give me his initials so he couldn't weasel his way out of his debacle, he did.

Anyways, you forgot the fourth part in your last paragraph, controller screws up and loses separation, pilot, passengers and people on the ground may die.

This is true, and if that were to happen bad bad things would happen..example. USAIR and Skywest at LAX.

But I'm talking more along the lines of IFR seperation when I need 3 miles on final and end up with 2.99 or when I need 4 miles behind a 757 and end up with 3.99. The problem is the FAA has microscopes to look at our seperation when us controllers get yard sticks. I can't tell the difference between 2.9 and 3 miles on the RACD yet the FAA can tell the difference between 2.99999999 and 3.0 We need the tools they have but that is a different story.

 

[CX880]

Pilots all know how controllers get pilots violated, but what is the process for it to work the other way? If a controller is caught not following procedure, how does a pilot lodge a formal complaint? Is there a form for ATC that is like the pilot deviation form used against pilots?

Unless you're dead because of their error, what have you got to complain about? Give them a break.

 

[b19]

Until you have spent some time flying in Africa, South America, India, parts of Asia, the Middle East where there are no Brits, The Stans......

You have no idea just how incredibly good, professional, well trained and easy it is to fly in the US. The controllers are here to help. Go fly in the rest of the world and come back with a whole new appreciation for our controllers.

And while I'm on the soapbox please, please quit the childish "blame game, he started it crap", if you don't like an instruction question it, or say unable. If you're far enough ahead of the plane you should be able to expect what's next and know whether or not you can comply.

Sorry if I offended, but just like CRM it's important that we all play nice and work together, you know the stuff we should have learned in kindergarten.

So please no damn paperwork.

 

[Nevets]

And while I'm on the soapbox please, please quit the childish "blame game, he started it crap", if you don't like an instruction question it, or say unable. If you're far enough ahead of the plane you should be able to expect what's next and know whether or not you can comply.

So please no damn paperwork.

This is exactly what I did, told the controller unable due to operational constraints. I knew about it before I took off and knew when I wouldn't have those restrictions at specific point on the flight plan. He would not have it even though I gave him 4 alternatives. Oh well, I got stuck with paperwork and he got reprimanded and caused all the controllers in his center to be "trained."

 

[CX880]

This is exactly what I did, told the controller unable due to operational constraints. I knew about it before I took off and knew when I wouldn't have those restrictions at specific point on the flight plan. He would not have it even though I gave him 4 alternatives. Oh well, I got stuck with paperwork and he got reprimanded and caused all the controllers in his center to be "trained."

You didn't have to report him though, you did get through with the flight did you? Or are u still suck up there trying to come with with solutions??

 

[Nevets]

You didn't have to report him though, you did get through with the flight did you? Or are u still suck up there trying to come with with solutions??

Nope, he tried to violate me for not complying with ATC instructions even though I never accepted it to begin with. I was forced to file an ASAP. I wouldn't have "reported" him if he wouldn't have tried to bully me by telling me either comply or I will file a pilot deviation on you.

 

[JAFI]

A controller cannot "violate" an Airman. He/she can only fill out a report that is forwarded to a FSDO or CMO to be investigated. There are times the "violation" is really an Operational Error by the controller and the FSDO just returns the report with an - No Action - determination. Then the controller is brought back to be retrained......

IMHO you all need to memorize CFR 91.3. As Pilot in Command you may do what ever you need to do to MEET AN EMERGERNCY.

However, if you decide that you need an emergency cold one and land on a street and taxi up to a bar to "Meet That Emergency" you may have to explain that one to a Judge. The "Reasonable Person" concept needs to be met.

 

[Nevets]

A controller cannot "violate" an Airman. He/she can only fill out a report that is forwarded to a FSDO or CMO to be investigated. There are times the "violation" is really an Operational Error by the controller and the FSDO just returns the report with an - No Action - determination. Then the controller is brought back to be retrained......

IMHO you all need to memorize CFR 91.3. As Pilot in Command you may do what ever you need to do to MEET AN EMERGERNCY.

However, if you decide that you need an emergency cold one and land on a street and taxi up to a bar to "Meet That Emergency" you may have to explain that one to a Judge. The "Reasonable Person" concept needs to be met.

Well, those where his words, not mine. Apparently there was no operational error either from what I was told afterward by the ERC. But I guess he found another way to make it work. They told me he was reprimanded for being belligerent on the frequency. I honestly think he was beside mad that I would refuse to take his clearance even after threats to my livelihood. As far as emergency, controller actually asked me if I was declaring an emergency and I said negative. The didn't seem to like that answer either.

 

[JAFI]

Nevets, it sounds like there is more to this controller’s story than you know about. I know of no way a controller can begin enforcement proceedings with out going through Flight Standards (FSDO or CMO). I see many more operational errors than pilot deviations. Making threats is unacceptable.


Controlling aircraft is a stressful, extremely dynamic job that "holds peoples lives in their hand". Remember the controller needs to keep a library of information, regulations, and procedures in his head while keeping situational awareness of many moving objects in 3D. The controller in your situation IMHO needs looked at, a long vacation, and medical attention.

 

[Nevets]

Nevets, it sounds like there is more to this controller’s story than you know about. I know of no way a controller can begin enforcement proceedings with out going through Flight Standards (FSDO or CMO). I see many more operational errors than pilot deviations. Making threats is unacceptable.


Controlling aircraft is a stressful, extremely dynamic job that "holds peoples lives in their hand". Remember the controller needs to keep a library of information, regulations, and procedures in his head while keeping situational awareness of many moving objects in 3D. The controller in your situation IMHO needs looked at, a long vacation, and medical attention.

Trust me, I have great respect for what these radar controllers do day in and day out. And I know they have a bigger picture than I do. I have about a dozen friends who are controllers. I couldn't do that job!

When I called to talk to the supervisor I was just told that this was being reffered to the FSDO for enforcement action. He just threw that out there to threaten me into accepting his illegal (in my operations) clearance. And there didn't end up being an operational error (I have two friends that work in the same area of that center who told me the other side of the story. This controller was just on a power trip and couldn't beleive that a pilot was refusing his clearance. In fact, he even said that to me on the frequency. "I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 25 YEARS AND I'VE NEVER HAD A PILOT NOT ACCEPT MY CLEARANCE!" From what my friends said, he does need a vacation. I hope he made use of some of his leave after being reprimanded because supposedly he was adamant that he was right. That must have been a rude awakening for him to be told that he was not.