How do you file a complaint for a controller error?

[radarlove]

Pilots all know how controllers get pilots violated, but what is the process for it to work the other way? If a controller is caught not following procedure, how does a pilot lodge a formal complaint? Is there a form for ATC that is like the pilot deviation form used against pilots?

 

[J3 Guy]

No forms, controllers never make mistakes.

 

[radarlove]

That's what it seems like. If it isn't a "deal", do controllers always get a free ride? Because they aren't giving pilots free rides any more.

I know some controllers are reading this. How can a complaint be filed officially? Does anyone know?

 

[TransMach]

ATC Comlaint

It's easy. Simply address a letter to the facility manager describing your complaint. Send it certified mail and request a copy of all ATC records regarding the event by way of the Freedom of Information Act of 1972.

Make sure you carbon copy your letter to the Manager, Air Traffic Service at the regional office to make sure the facility manager does his job. You should also provide a copy to headquarters, Washington, DC., with a copy to the General Accounting Office and the Department of Transportation, Inspector General's office ... that way you should have sufficient oversight. If you provide a copy to both of your Senators there should be enough media attention to make sure somebody does something.

That should do it. But I wouldn't count on a "Get out of Jail, Free" card anywhere in the forseeable future.

TransMach

 

[bizicmo]

It would just be easier to find where the controller lives and to egg his house.

 

[captfred]

Before you leave the freq get his/her initials and ask for the supervisors phone number. Call that number when you land and make a verbal filing of the complaint. Follow up with paperwork via your POI or CMO(135/121 operators) or the nearest GADO(or whatever they are now called) if you are Part 91.

Perhaps a controller can give better advice but this is my best guess as to how to handle this.

 

[Say Again Over]

My advice is not to file a complaint, do you really want to operate in an environment of people filing paperwork on each other?

Call the facility, request to speak with a supervisor, when you get the Sup. on the line, you give them the time and location / position the problem occurred and discussions will take place.

Controllers have saved my bacon and many others on numerous occasion, and maybe yours someday! They are our professional brothers.

This approach has worked for me over the years, no controller has ever filed any paperwork on me and god only knows how many times I have been in a position to get filed upon :blush:.

Cheers, S.A.O.

 

[LJ45]

My advice is not to file a complaint, do you really want to operate in an environment of people filing paperwork on each other?

Call the facility, request to speak with a supervisor, when you get the Sup. on the line, you give them the time and location / position the problem occurred and discussions will take place.

Controllers have saved my bacon and many others on numerous occasion, and maybe yours someday! They are our professional brothers.

This approach has worked for me over the years, no controller has ever filed any paperwork on me and god only knows how many times I have been in a position to get filed upon :blush:.

Cheers, S.A.O.

Excellent mature advice, and I totally agree!

 

[SSDD]

I was on the frequency a few nights ago and some yehoo, made a report of severe turbulence, and wanted a SIGMET based on his report. He thought the controller dissed him so when he got to the next frequency he wanted all kinds of phone numbers, and wanted to know how to report this guy. Mostly he kept repeating that he didn't understand why a SIGMET had not been issued.

We followed him on the other radio through a few frequencies, His ignorance of the system was quite comical.

 

[NCherches]

...Thats what's awesomse about ATC... If you don't like a controller give it about 200 miles and your sure to get a new one. Is it me or are there a lot more sexy sounding female controllers around the SW lately?!?!

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

care to be specific on the error in question. Are you sure it was a deal?

 

[captfred]

It all depends on just exactly what happened as to how it should be handled. If you get vectored right into a terrain escape manuever I would suggest paperwork as described above. If you have a TCAS RA and some of your pax or FA's sustain injuries you also need paperwork.

 

[radarlove]

care to be specific on the error in question. Are you sure it was a deal?

It wasn't a deal.

A controller made an error, then we made an error and the controller wrote up our error. Later, I found out that the controller left out his error in the report (must have forgot).

If the FSDO comes after us, I want to have a filed complaint that addresses the first error by the controller, since the paperwork doesn't reflect it at this time.

It was not a deal, it was sloppy controller work that caused a lot of confusion.

No problem, except that the controller then got his sup involved and both thought the item that started the cascade was something that didn't need to make it into the report, but the sup filed a report.

Normally, I wouldn't give a flying you-know-what. I don't like filing paperwork. In this case, like a four year-old, "He started it!" Had he not filed, then I wouldn't file. Again, it wasn't a "deal".

I very well may need the backup paperwork, hence the question.

I am currently thinking a letter to the facility manager requesting a review of the circumstances and whether the controller followed the ATC manual might be in order.

Is the ATC manual regulatory? Or is it like the AIM?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

the ATC manual called the 7110.65 is regualatory, however if no loss of seperation ensued then his non deal was not an error. not much you can do. If you care to explain the situation better then im sure I can give you advice being both a pilot and a controller. You can leave facilities out, but the circumstances are crucial.

Mk

 

[radarlove]

Check your PMs. This probably isn't a public discussion.

 

[citabriapilot]

I was on the frequency a few nights ago and some yehoo, made a report of severe turbulence, and wanted a SIGMET based on his report. He thought the controller dissed him so when he got to the next frequency he wanted all kinds of phone numbers, and wanted to know how to report this guy. Mostly he kept repeating that he didn't understand why a SIGMET had not been issued.

We followed him on the other radio through a few frequencies, His ignorance of the system was quite comical.

I heard a Delta guy telling a controller that it was bad judgment to send their flight through a particularly bumpy, icy area. Then he kept asking for a phone number to call a supervisor and complain. When did it become a controllers responsibility for weather avoidance?

 

[BillJBrake]

This is rich. Pilots aren't getting singled out and picked on by controllers for every mistake, just like it shouldn't be done for controllers.

An eye for an eye and everyone is blind!

I can't count how many times lately I've heard pilots miss crossing restrictions, blow a turn, etc, and the controller doesn't violate them... no harm no foul.

I'd love to know what your specific situation was, he either lost separation or didn't, if he did, it was a PE or OE, if he didn't, then you're out of luck!

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

CITABRIA: When did it become a controllers responsibility for weather avoidance?

ME: From day 1.

 

[rogerwilcoout]

I think it is important to remember that we are professionals on both sides of the radio. The controller is human and if he slighted you in a minute way, he probably didn't mean to. Kinda like when someone loses the translation of a joke on a message board. If it was a serious mistake causing loss of separation then I can assure you it has been handled or will be. I am a pilot and I have been on the receiving end of a "call this number". It was discovered that it was a controller fault and not mine. Was it fair to go through the process? Probably not. But I can tell you that controllers have saved me from having to do the dance a couple of times. So, to want to file a complaint seems petty and I think when able, we should afford each other the chance to correct our mistakes without having to have our careers put in jeopardy.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

yeah, I got the story behind all this. Long story short, controller gave more then a 30' turn for the ILS all the while these guys busted an altitude. Their inability to fly the airplane and maintain altitude was the controllers fault apparently.

 

[pilothouston123]

Are we really looking to blame each other? I run a flight department with 12 pilots and the best ones are the ones quick to admit when they made a mistake. I feel the primary reason for my advancement is my willingness to admit when I made a mistake and learn and move on.
IMHO controlers are part of the team. There is no way that this is going to work if we don't work together to achive the primary goal. Getting from A to B safely.

 

[Captain4242]

I had a situation a few years ago in which ATC accused me of doing something I did not do. Defending myself on the radio didn't work, and I took a lot of heat for it (both on the radio and here at this forum). Calling the controllers supervisor upon landing cleared the air. I still wanted to file a formal complaint, but decided not to; maybe someone will cut me a break someday.

 

[DFries]

"Say Initials, and Mark Tape" thats a good way to get the ball rolling.....

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

"Say Initials, and Mark Tape" thats a good way to get the ball rolling.....

If someone said that to me I would laugh. I don't have to say my initials. You can get that information through the freedom of information act. We aren't playing each side against each other. The circumstance here is simple. Controller gave them a more then 30' turn onto an ILS so bad controller. The pilots busted an altitude so bad pilot. Controller didn't do anything illegal, just practically rendering the approach useless, but with no loss of separation, and no airspace violations, the controller is free and clear. As for the pilots....well, don't bust your altitude.

 

[Colonel Savage]

How do you "mark the tape"?

 

[Nevets]

I had a situation a few years ago in which ATC accused me of doing something I did not do. Defending myself on the radio didn't work, and I took a lot of heat for it (both on the radio and here at this forum). Calling the controllers supervisor upon landing cleared the air. I still wanted to file a formal complaint, but decided not to; maybe someone will cut me a break someday.

I had a similar situation.
Drift Down Routes

If someone said that to me I would laugh. I don't have to say my initials.

Is that really true? You are not required to give your operating initials if asked by a pilot? Also, are pilots required to copy or call the facility if told to do so by a controller?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I had a similar situation.
Drift Down Routes



Is that really true? You are not required to give your operating initials if asked by a pilot? Also, are pilots required to copy or call the facility if told to do so by a controller?

Yeah, I don't have to give my initials over the freq. If you have a problem with the controller then get the phone number, call them when you shut down, talk to the supervisor. They have to put a "Q" in the daily log meaning QA meaning the QA specialists then have to pull the tape and investigate. Very few controllers are out to get pilots...

Here is my mentality....Pilot screws up.....nothing bad happens, I don't even say anything as not to belittle them on freq or get a supervisor involved. I screw up....nothing bad happens....I hope you do the same. Pilot screws up...I loose seperation....then we have a problem.

 

[DC8Driver]

It wasn't a deal.

A controller made an error, then we made an error and the controller wrote up our error. Later, I found out that the controller left out his error in the report (must have forgot).

If the FSDO comes after us, I want to have a filed complaint that addresses the first error by the controller, since the paperwork doesn't reflect it at this time.

It was not a deal, it was sloppy controller work that caused a lot of confusion.

No problem, except that the controller then got his sup involved and both thought the item that started the cascade was something that didn't need to make it into the report, but the sup filed a report.

Normally, I wouldn't give a flying you-know-what. I don't like filing paperwork. In this case, like a four year-old, "He started it!" Had he not filed, then I wouldn't file. Again, it wasn't a "deal".

I very well may need the backup paperwork, hence the question.

I am currently thinking a letter to the facility manager requesting a review of the circumstances and whether the controller followed the ATC manual might be in order.

Is the ATC manual regulatory? Or is it like the AIM?

If he filed a report, you can bet an Inspector from the FSDO will be calling you. It's up to him what happens next.

 

[JAFI]

The difference here is a Pilot can get a violation and injured or dead. A controller can only be "re-trained" and lose some pay. The whole point is people make mistakes (human nature) but we are in a profession that if we make a mistake - people die. Flying is not brain surgery but a surgeon can only kill one person at a time (a quote I stole from a Check Airman). The pilot many more.

The pilot is the ultimate responsibility for the flight. A controller has responsibility but his/her life is not on the line. Some people should not be flying airplanes and some should not be controllers. The key is to figure out who before the accident.

Your FSDO/CMO can also call QA and get a tape pulled. The tape is erased after 30 days. Don't be late on that call.......

 

[Nevets]

Yeah, I don't have to give my initials over the freq. If you have a problem with the controller then get the phone number, call them when you shut down, talk to the supervisor. They have to put a "Q" in the daily log meaning QA meaning the QA specialists then have to pull the tape and investigate. Very few controllers are out to get pilots...

Here is my mentality....Pilot screws up.....nothing bad happens, I don't even say anything as not to belittle them on freq or get a supervisor involved. I screw up....nothing bad happens....I hope you do the same. Pilot screws up...I loose seperation....then we have a problem.

I only ask because in my situation the controller was sure he was right (he wasn't) by his tone of voice, yet when I asked him to give me his initials so he couldn't weasel his way out of his debacle, he did.

Anyways, you forgot the fourth part in your last paragraph, controller screws up and loses separation, pilot, passengers and people on the ground may die.