How do you file a complaint for a controller error?

[Lrjtcaptain]

I only ask because in my situation the controller was sure he was right (he wasn't) by his tone of voice, yet when I asked him to give me his initials so he couldn't weasel his way out of his debacle, he did.

Anyways, you forgot the fourth part in your last paragraph, controller screws up and loses separation, pilot, passengers and people on the ground may die.

This is true, and if that were to happen bad bad things would happen..example. USAIR and Skywest at LAX.

But I'm talking more along the lines of IFR seperation when I need 3 miles on final and end up with 2.99 or when I need 4 miles behind a 757 and end up with 3.99. The problem is the FAA has microscopes to look at our seperation when us controllers get yard sticks. I can't tell the difference between 2.9 and 3 miles on the RACD yet the FAA can tell the difference between 2.99999999 and 3.0 We need the tools they have but that is a different story.

 

[CX880]

Pilots all know how controllers get pilots violated, but what is the process for it to work the other way? If a controller is caught not following procedure, how does a pilot lodge a formal complaint? Is there a form for ATC that is like the pilot deviation form used against pilots?

Unless you're dead because of their error, what have you got to complain about? Give them a break.

 

[b19]

Until you have spent some time flying in Africa, South America, India, parts of Asia, the Middle East where there are no Brits, The Stans......

You have no idea just how incredibly good, professional, well trained and easy it is to fly in the US. The controllers are here to help. Go fly in the rest of the world and come back with a whole new appreciation for our controllers.

And while I'm on the soapbox please, please quit the childish "blame game, he started it crap", if you don't like an instruction question it, or say unable. If you're far enough ahead of the plane you should be able to expect what's next and know whether or not you can comply.

Sorry if I offended, but just like CRM it's important that we all play nice and work together, you know the stuff we should have learned in kindergarten.

So please no damn paperwork.

 

[Nevets]

And while I'm on the soapbox please, please quit the childish "blame game, he started it crap", if you don't like an instruction question it, or say unable. If you're far enough ahead of the plane you should be able to expect what's next and know whether or not you can comply.

So please no damn paperwork.

This is exactly what I did, told the controller unable due to operational constraints. I knew about it before I took off and knew when I wouldn't have those restrictions at specific point on the flight plan. He would not have it even though I gave him 4 alternatives. Oh well, I got stuck with paperwork and he got reprimanded and caused all the controllers in his center to be "trained."

 

[CX880]

This is exactly what I did, told the controller unable due to operational constraints. I knew about it before I took off and knew when I wouldn't have those restrictions at specific point on the flight plan. He would not have it even though I gave him 4 alternatives. Oh well, I got stuck with paperwork and he got reprimanded and caused all the controllers in his center to be "trained."

You didn't have to report him though, you did get through with the flight did you? Or are u still suck up there trying to come with with solutions??

 

[Nevets]

You didn't have to report him though, you did get through with the flight did you? Or are u still suck up there trying to come with with solutions??

Nope, he tried to violate me for not complying with ATC instructions even though I never accepted it to begin with. I was forced to file an ASAP. I wouldn't have "reported" him if he wouldn't have tried to bully me by telling me either comply or I will file a pilot deviation on you.

 

[JAFI]

A controller cannot "violate" an Airman. He/she can only fill out a report that is forwarded to a FSDO or CMO to be investigated. There are times the "violation" is really an Operational Error by the controller and the FSDO just returns the report with an - No Action - determination. Then the controller is brought back to be retrained......

IMHO you all need to memorize CFR 91.3. As Pilot in Command you may do what ever you need to do to MEET AN EMERGERNCY.

However, if you decide that you need an emergency cold one and land on a street and taxi up to a bar to "Meet That Emergency" you may have to explain that one to a Judge. The "Reasonable Person" concept needs to be met.

 

[Nevets]

A controller cannot "violate" an Airman. He/she can only fill out a report that is forwarded to a FSDO or CMO to be investigated. There are times the "violation" is really an Operational Error by the controller and the FSDO just returns the report with an - No Action - determination. Then the controller is brought back to be retrained......

IMHO you all need to memorize CFR 91.3. As Pilot in Command you may do what ever you need to do to MEET AN EMERGERNCY.

However, if you decide that you need an emergency cold one and land on a street and taxi up to a bar to "Meet That Emergency" you may have to explain that one to a Judge. The "Reasonable Person" concept needs to be met.

Well, those where his words, not mine. Apparently there was no operational error either from what I was told afterward by the ERC. But I guess he found another way to make it work. They told me he was reprimanded for being belligerent on the frequency. I honestly think he was beside mad that I would refuse to take his clearance even after threats to my livelihood. As far as emergency, controller actually asked me if I was declaring an emergency and I said negative. The didn't seem to like that answer either.

 

[JAFI]

Nevets, it sounds like there is more to this controller’s story than you know about. I know of no way a controller can begin enforcement proceedings with out going through Flight Standards (FSDO or CMO). I see many more operational errors than pilot deviations. Making threats is unacceptable.


Controlling aircraft is a stressful, extremely dynamic job that "holds peoples lives in their hand". Remember the controller needs to keep a library of information, regulations, and procedures in his head while keeping situational awareness of many moving objects in 3D. The controller in your situation IMHO needs looked at, a long vacation, and medical attention.

 

[Nevets]

Nevets, it sounds like there is more to this controller’s story than you know about. I know of no way a controller can begin enforcement proceedings with out going through Flight Standards (FSDO or CMO). I see many more operational errors than pilot deviations. Making threats is unacceptable.


Controlling aircraft is a stressful, extremely dynamic job that "holds peoples lives in their hand". Remember the controller needs to keep a library of information, regulations, and procedures in his head while keeping situational awareness of many moving objects in 3D. The controller in your situation IMHO needs looked at, a long vacation, and medical attention.

Trust me, I have great respect for what these radar controllers do day in and day out. And I know they have a bigger picture than I do. I have about a dozen friends who are controllers. I couldn't do that job!

When I called to talk to the supervisor I was just told that this was being reffered to the FSDO for enforcement action. He just threw that out there to threaten me into accepting his illegal (in my operations) clearance. And there didn't end up being an operational error (I have two friends that work in the same area of that center who told me the other side of the story. This controller was just on a power trip and couldn't beleive that a pilot was refusing his clearance. In fact, he even said that to me on the frequency. "I'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR 25 YEARS AND I'VE NEVER HAD A PILOT NOT ACCEPT MY CLEARANCE!" From what my friends said, he does need a vacation. I hope he made use of some of his leave after being reprimanded because supposedly he was adamant that he was right. That must have been a rude awakening for him to be told that he was not.

 

[glasspilot]

You sound like you need a vacation. Maybe you were right here. Truth be told, I get the feeling that a major bit of facts are missing from your story. Even if what you say is true I'd question not taking the clearance for something as silly as driftdown unless it specifically states in your GOM that you are not allowed to deviate off course for it. What's the SESC for an ERJ anyway? 20K? Where were you that 20K would be a problem?

Plus, you report having 5,000 hours on your profile. That's right where regional PICs start to think they know it all. I'm not saying that's you...but you sound the part.

Relax and do as controllers tell you, unless they are way off base and that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

[A Squared]

You sound like you need a vacation. Maybe you were right here. Truth be told, I get the feeling that a major bit of facts are missing from your story. Even if what you say is true I'd question not taking the clearance for something as silly as driftdown unless it specifically states in your GOM that you are not allowed to deviate off course for it. What's the SESC for an ERJ anyway? 20K? Where were you that 20K would be a problem?

Plus, you report having 5,000 hours on your profile. That's right where regional PICs start to think they know it all. I'm not saying that's you...but you sound the part.

Relax and do as controllers tell you, unless they are way off base and that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Bull$hit.

He was exactly right.

Here's what the AIM has to say about the situation:

AIM 4-4-1a. A clearance issued by ATC is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions. An ATC clearance means an authorization by ATC, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified conditions within controlled airspace. IT IS NOT AUTHORIZATION FOR A PILOT TO DEVIATE FROM ANY RULE, REGULATION, OR MINIMUM ALTITUDE NOR TO CONDUCT UNSAFE OPERATION OF THE AIRCRAFT.

AIM4-4-1 b. 14 CFR Section 91.3(a) states: "The pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." If ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy, IT IS THE PILOT'S RESPONSIBILITY TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE.


The Caps are added by the FAA, so it's probably a point they want to emphasize.


Here's what 7110.65T (controller Handbook) has to say:

from Chapter 2, section 1 2-1-1:

NOTE-
Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order.

something as silly as driftdown

Oh yeah? You got a official FAA reference on which regulations are "silly" and which aren't? That would be handy. Are the "silly" ones less regulatory that the non-silly ones?

Thing is, thre are a bunch of regulatons in 121 and other places which I think are a bit conservative, and are designed to prevent a situation which had a very low probability of happening. Doesn't matter, I am still required to abide by them.

If you had a fed on you jumpseat who was paying attention, and caught the driftdown violation, the fact that ATC asked you to violate that wouldn't be much of a defense in the enforcemet proceedings. They're probably refer you to 91.3 and the advice in the AIM.

They might let you off if you told them you thought that particular regulation was "silly", that's a pretty compelling defense.


Go ahead, tell me in your best condescending tone that 9500 hours is where pilots start to think they know everything.

 

[glasspilot]

What a co-inky-dink! 9500 hours is where pilots start to sympathize with 5000 hour pilots...

Seriously, i don't know. The story sounds weak. Like I said it sounds like some major facts have been left out. As to drift down: the CRJ could hold 20K single engine. Where was he that his ERJ needed special attention to the point of telling ATC to screw off?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but from his tone my "BS" detector is starting to chirp. That's all.

 

[A Squared]

What a co-inky-dink! 9500 hours is where pilots start to sympathize with 5000 hour pilots...

:laugh:

As to drift down: the CRJ could hold 20K single engine. Where was he that his ERJ needed special attention to the point of telling ATC to screw off?

Don't know a thing about ERJ drift downs. He says at his weight and temp, his charts would put him below 16800. I have no basis for questioning that.

 

[BushwickBill]

Yeah, I don't have to give my initials over the freq. If you have a problem with the controller then get the phone number, call them when you shut down, talk to the supervisor. They have to put a "Q" in the daily log meaning QA meaning the QA specialists then have to pull the tape and investigate. Very few controllers are out to get pilots...

Here is my mentality....Pilot screws up.....nothing bad happens, I don't even say anything as not to belittle them on freq or get a supervisor involved. I screw up....nothing bad happens....I hope you do the same. Pilot screws up...I loose seperation....then we have a problem.

Uh huh.... really? That's not how I remember you. In fact not only did you belittle me on freq, you came down to the flight school to pick on me in person - in front of my coworkers.

I'm glad you went away, I hope you don't come back and I hope your MK propaganda campaign goes well. If anything you've done a good job fooling yourself.