How Did the 9-11 Hijackers Navigate?

[ultrarunner]

BUT, I am almost 100% confident, that when they busted in the cockpit....

I would argue that in at least on instance, they didn't have to bust in.

think about that.

 

[jarhead]

Press Release Source: The Discovery Channel

Discovery Channel Presents THE FLIGHT THAT FOUGHT BACK, A Remarkable Tribute To The Heroism Aboard United Airlines Flight 93
Saturday July 16, 3:35 pm ET
Minute-by-Minute Retelling of Attempt to Take Back the Plane is Most Comprehensive Effort To-Date
Never-Before-Heard Personal Accounts From Family Members and Rarely Heard Voice Recordings From Passengers and Crew

SILVER SPRING, Md., July 16 /PRNewswire/ -- The Discovery Channel will present THE FLIGHT THAT FOUGHT BACK, featuring personal accounts of witnesses and first-time interviews with families and friends of the heroes of Flight 93, on Sunday, September 11, 2005, at 8 PM (ET/PT). The compelling 90-minute special, a combination documentary and dramatization, chronicles the heroism of the 33 passengers and seven crewmembers on United Airlines Flight 93, which was hijacked, re-routed toward Washington, D.C., and crashed in Somerset County, Pa., on September 11, 2001. The announcement was made today by Jane Root, executive vice president and general manager of Discovery Channel.

 

[RideTheWind]

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/maps/timeline.htm

2000

May 18

CNN reports that Atta uses his new passport in Berlin to obtain a tourist visa for the United States.

June 2

According to Czech officials, Mohamed Atta arrives in Prague by bus and stays there for 24 hours.

June 3

Atta arrives in Newark, New Jersey aboard a Czech Airlines flight from Prague with a six month tourist visa for the US. He has shaved off his beard, has begun to wear western style clothing again and appears to have a large amount of money at his disposal.

June–July

Atta and several other men tour the Airman flight school in Norman, Oklahoma.

July–December 21

Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi enrol in flying lessons in Venice, Florida at Huffman Aviation, saying that they are cousins who want to be commercial pilots in the United Arab Emirates. They pay some US $40 000 for about 300 hours of flying time.

December 21

Atta and Al-Shehhi get their pilot licenses. Around this time, Atta and other hijackers purchase global-positioning devices known as GPS-3s from Tropic-Aero, an aviation-supply shop in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

December 27

Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi abandon their broken-down small private plane on a taxiway at Miami International Airport.

December 29–30



Atta and Al-Shehhi train for three hours each at a cost of $1500, on the Boeing 727 simulator belonging to Simcenter Inc. at Opa-Locka Airport outside Miami. Each spends about 90 minutes per day on the simulator which has controls similar to a 767 See a simulator similar to the one used by Atta (Requires RealPlayer.)
2001

January 4

Airline records show that Atta flies into Madrid from Miami.

January 10

Atta returns to the USA even though his visa has expired. He is detained briefly at the airport but is cleared into the country as a tourist.

February

Atta and Al-Shehhi rent a single-engine Piper Warrior from a Gwinnett County, Georgia flight school.

February–March

Atta and several other men inquire at South Florida Crop Care about crop-dusting planes.

April

Czech Interior Minister, Stanislav Gross says a meeting between Atta and Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir Al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence agent took place in Prague, several weeks before Al-Ani was expelled from the country April 22, 2001, for conduct incompatible with his diplomatic status. There are reports that this was possibly the third or fourth meeting between Atta and Al-Ani.

April 26

Atta is stopped in Broward County, Florida, for a traffic violation and is given a citation for driving without a license.

May 2

Atta gets a Florida drivers license

May 13–June 13

Atta and Al-Shehhi live in Jackson Street, Hollywood, Florida.

mid-June

Atta and Al-Shehhi move into a Tara Gardens condo in Coral Springs.

June 29–July 1

Atta travels to Las Vegas, Nevada and stays at the Econo Lodge. Investigators say that Atta met with two other hijackers, Salem Alhazmi and Hani Hanjour during this trip and that both Marwan Al-Shehhi and Ziad Jarrah were also in Las Vegas. Four of these five men were on separate flights on September 11, leading investigators to believe that the meetings in Vegas took place in order to finalise the details of the attack.

June 4

A warrant is issued for Atta's arrest due to his no-show at his hearing for his traffic offence.

June 27

Atta flies from Fort Lauderdale to Boston.

July 1

Atta flies from Boston to NY.

July 3

Atta flies from Newark to Fort Lauderdale

July 7

Spanish Police say that according to airline records, Atta flies into Madrid, where he rents a car and then checks into a seaside hotel about 375 miles away, near Barcelona. He visits Spain extensively, logging more than 1200 miles in a rented car, and intelligence officials believe there were meetings with suspected members of bin Laden's network (who were recently arrested in Spain on charges unrelated to September 11). Hotel records confirm that Atta spends his last night at the Monstsant Hostal in Salou, where he pays with visa and registers under his own name. There are also reports that Atta went to a prison in southern Spain, where he asked to visit an Algerian being held on murder charges.
the Guardian reports that this trip included a brief visit to Switzerland.

July 19

Atta departs Madrid and enters the US for the last time.

August

Atta and several other men ask about crop-dusting planes at an airstrip in Belle Glade, Florida. They want to know how much fuel and chemicals the planes can carry and whether special skills are needed to pilot them. They also approach South Florida Crop Care again, where Atta leaves an impression of being "real persistent".

August 6–13

Atta and Al-Shehhi rent a white Ford Escort from Warrick's Rent-a-Car, Pompano Beach Read the rental car documents.
August 13–14

Mohammed Atta goes to Las Vegas and stays in the Econo Lodge. Both Hani Hanjour and Nawaf Alhazami are also in Las Vegas at this time.

August 14

Atta flies from Las Vegas to Houston.

August 15–19

Atta and Al-Shehhi rent a blue Chevy Corsica from Warrick's Rent-A-Car, in Pompano Beach, Florida, and return it with almost 3,000 miles logged Read the rental car documents.
August 16–19

Atta rents a single engine, four seater Piper Archer from the Palm Beach County Airport at Lantana for three consecutive days of flying.

August 23

Atta's drivers license is suspended indefinitely when he fails to appear in traffic court.

August 28

Atta flies from Baltimore to Fort Lauderdale. He buys two tickets for American Airlines Flight 11 on the Internet, for himself and Al-Omari.

September 4

Security cameras capture a white Mitsubishi sedan casing a parking lot at Logan International Airport in Boston several times within the space of a few days.

September 7

Atta goes to Shuckum's Oyster Bar and Grill in Hollywood, Florida with Marwan Al-Shehhi. According to bar staff, Atta spends almost 4 hours at the pinball machine drinking cranberry juice, while Al-Shehhi drinks alcohol with an unidentified male companion.

September 10

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/img/timeline_comfortinn.jpg Atta and another alleged hijacker, Abdul Aziz Al-Omari, check into the Comfort Inn in South Portland, Maine. They are caught on security cameras visiting a gas station, two ATMs and shopping at a Wal-Mart in Scarborough.

September 11

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/img/timeline_lastpic.jpg The last picture of Atta is taken around 5:45am at the airport in Portland, Maine, as he passes through security before boarding a flight to Boston. At 7:59am, American Airlines Flight 11 departs Boston for Los Angeles, with Atta and Al-Omari on board. At 8:45am the plane strikes the northern tower of the World Trade Centre.

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

Have any of you actually TRIED to use a handheld in a 757/767/737/747/A330/A340 cockpit? I bet you haven't, because THEY DON'T WORK!

Why? The windscreens are made out of several sandwiched layers, glass, adhesive, plexiglass and GOLD or Tin Oxide (the heating element) which effectively blocks the antenna. I've tried on several occasions on the B744, A330 and A340 to use my handheld(s) in the cockpit, and it simply will not (cannot) receive a signal.

The scumbags may have been using a GPS handheld to get Lat/Long which they inserted into the FMS.

 

[KigAir]

Here's an interesting article about Flight 11.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/redux.html

Some have even gone as far to suggest, that the flights in question, may very well have been electronically hijacked by existing US military technology, that is capable of commandeering an aircraft through computer-driven, remote recovery, rend-ering cockpit controls and communication, useless. More specifically, it would make hostages of pilots, passengers, and ³hijackers,² alike, and guarantee that certain targets would be reached, above and beyond the unpredictable dispositions and limited skill levels of ³fanatical, 20-something terrorists.² Still others have suggested, that there were various other, assembled, undercover individuals on those flights, possessing diametrically opposed, yet equally fanatical persuasions (and far superior flight training), that were involved in ³using² the Middle Eastern occupants as a ruse, to covertly assume control of the flights beyond detection - and hence blame. Their efforts were further assisted, it is claimed, by the cooperation (if not collaboration), with US intelligence agencies, the US military, and certain elements within the political establishment. If recent events, and the consideration of certain relevant news releases (i.e. the Israeli spy scandal), any indication, this interpretation may yet prove to hold much credence.

I don't know what's worst, the people who write this stuff or the people who read and believe it.

 

[FN FAL]

I don't know what's worst, the people who write this stuff or the people who read and believe it.

That's just plain insane...sounds like chemtrail people should at least study harder before they write this junk.

 

[User546]

I would argue that in at least one instance, they didn't have to bust in.

think about that.

I was using the phrase "busted in" in more of a liberal sense. It's well documented that the cockpit doors were unlocked, and perhaps even open, that day when they took control of the airplane.

I meant it more to mean, when the hijackers stormed the cockpit, and over-ran the pilots.

And to the user that suggested they used the Lat/Longs to enter into the FMS. Having never used a Boeing FMS, would this be something easily done, or would this require a bit of training on their part to be able to figure out? I can't imagine that they'd just be able to sit down and for the first time punch in some cooridnates and fly direct to them.

 

[RideTheWind]

Have any of you actually TRIED to use a handheld in a 757/767/737/747/A330/A340 cockpit? I bet you haven't, because THEY DON'T WORK!

Why? The windscreens are made out of several sandwiched layers, glass, adhesive, plexiglass and GOLD or Tin Oxide (the heating element) which effectively blocks the antenna. I've tried on several occasions on the B744, A330 and A340 to use my handheld(s) in the cockpit, and it simply will not (cannot) receive a signal.

The scumbags may have been using a GPS handheld to get Lat/Long which they inserted into the FMS.

My handheld works fine in the cockpit of the Lear, haven't tried it in anything else.

 

[rumpletumbler]

This is kind of interesting....from the above article.

In fact, the very same Middle Eastern hijackers, that allegedly took control of AA Flight 11, attended classes at flight schools in both Venice and Sarasota, Florida, and were trained by the very same instructors who have routinely flown world-wide missions for various Christian fundamentalist missionary services, from those very same airports and the flight schools therein. These missions have included Pat Robertson¹s ³Operation Blessing² and Jerry Falwell¹s ³World Help². Considering the eager anticipation, for certain ³biblical events² to transpire, from Evangelical figures such as these, this connection, indeed, proves to be a troubling one.

The church I attended for a while Six Flags over Jesus! imports muslims into Clarkston Georgia and sets them up in housing etc. feeds them until they get jobs, on and on at the rate of several hundred per year. The pastor of this Church also regularly expouses from the pulpit about how he would like to see the US brought to its knees financially (so he could benefit maybe?). Anyhow....

 

[TIS]

Have any of you actually TRIED to use a handheld in a 757/767/737/747/A330/A340 cockpit? I bet you haven't, because THEY DON'T WORK!

Why? The windscreens are made out of several sandwiched layers, glass, adhesive, plexiglass and GOLD or Tin Oxide (the heating element) which effectively blocks the antenna. I've tried on several occasions on the B744, A330 and A340 to use my handheld(s) in the cockpit, and it simply will not (cannot) receive a signal.

The scumbags may have been using a GPS handheld to get Lat/Long which they inserted into the FMS.

This was going to be my point EXACTLY! I've tried my handheld and it can't see through the widows if they're heated.

They may well have been able to get very accurate coordinates for their plans but they loaded them manually into the FMS. That's not a hard thing to do and I'm sure they did it.

 

[groundpointsix]

And to the user that suggested they used the Lat/Longs to enter into the FMS. Having never used a Boeing FMS, would this be something easily done, or would this require a bit of training on their part to be able to figure out? I can't imagine that they'd just be able to sit down and for the first time punch in some cooridnates and fly direct to them.

I'm not familiar with the FMS on the Boeing, but I would imagine all it probably takes is a few minutes to learn the series of keystrokes to do it. I'd bet that if you typed in the model number on google or checked ebay or the manufacturer's website you'd probably come up with a user's guide and or a demo program.

 

[WMUchickenhawk]

I had always heard that the flights leaving from Boston used the Hudson to fly down to New York.

 

[TIS]

There's something NONE of you are thinking about

Anyway, the hijackers were all trained pilots, they could find NYC on a clear day.

Yeah, probably true. But I have two observations. The first is that - and anyone who has flown anywhere near NYC or DC can tell you - these cities are NOWHERE near as impressive from the air as they are from the ground. NYC is surprisingly difficult to pick up until you're less than 20 miles away - EVEN on a clear day. DC is the same way. Being down low compounds this problem.

Speaking of being down low, this brings me to my second and more important point; How often is it reliably clear and a million on the ENTIRE eastern seaboard? The fact is - and again, anyone familiar with flying there will agree - that days like September 11 are few and far between. The Wx may be fine in BOS but that's no guarantee about NYC or DCA, and vice-versa.

The bottom line is that these guys were prepared to carry out this attack rain or shine. Shine was better but given their need to begin positioning themselves well before daybreak that day, they had to rely on forecasts - which are notoriously inaccurate pretty much anywhere in the northeast corridor. They had to have been ready for a rainy day, a hazy day, thunderstorms, etc.

They simply had to have been ready to use the on-board guidance in the planes to achieve their goals. Now, they may not have done that all that skillfully but they did it well enough to get within visual range of their targets.

Perhaps I'm making too many assumptions but these guys went to the trouble of learning to fly. Surely they could take a little more time and learn how to ENSURE their success in ANY attack they might make.

TIS

 

[sf3boy]

I know of a guy that works in the FBI and on this stuff. He said they had bought hand held GPS's and went to the targets and wrote down the lat/long.


Break into the cockpit, murder, type for 10 seconds, hit direct, hit enter. Nothing to difficult to do.

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

VERY Good FMS trainers are available on Flight Simulator By Microsoft...

 

[redd]

I want to pose another question, with the threat of terrorism still out there, should we be restraining ourselves from discussing the navigation topic in detail on a public forum, does it make it easier for any future would be hijakers to get the straight scoop from pilots who actually fly the equipment?

 

[Makesheepnervus]

IMO there were 2 ways the hijackers could have navigated to the towers;

1.) VFR, As we all know the entire eastern seaboard was severe clear that day. If you fly westbound from Boston you will easily see the Hudson river from the flight levels. Turn left, and follow the river to the ocean, New York and the WTC would have stood out quite easily. The second aircraft appeared to come in from the south east, possibly following the Jersey shore northbound until sighting the NYC skyline, the second plane also had the advantage of sighting the smoke plume from the first impact.

2.) Use the FMS, this one is even easier. It is apparent from the investigation that the Hijackers had access to the 767 and 757 flight manuals and quite likely the FMS's as well. With the Lat / longs for the two seperate towers in hand, which they could have gotten using a handheld GPS at the locations as a previous post mentioned, or even from the internet, one simply does the following;
a.) (Hell, you think I'm going to tell you Islamofacists how to do it?)

The **** now displays the direct course to the towers, engage **** on the autopilot and watch.

 

[414Flyer]

That was the only recorded video of the hit, and it was taken by French filmakers Jules and Gedeon Naudet, who were filming a documentary on a new firefighter recruit. Of course, the movie takes a whole new twist after the attack, and it is one of the most riveting pieces of history ever filmed. It is called simply 9/11. After the first hit, they film from inside the North Tower with exclusive access to the firefighters involved until the bitter end. I own it and watch it every so often from start to finish. It's a must see.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0312318/

I get teary eyed every time I see the inital hits. Never F'ing forget.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc-people-hanging-photo5-5d-right-800h.jpg

I watched that film in a firefighting class. I highly, highly recommend it, especially for those here or are/have been in firefighting, or have an interest in it.

 

[dash8driver]

Have any of you actually TRIED to use a handheld in a 757/767/737/747/A330/A340 cockpit? I bet you haven't, because THEY DON'T WORK!

Why? The windscreens are made out of several sandwiched layers, glass, adhesive, plexiglass and GOLD or Tin Oxide (the heating element) which effectively blocks the antenna. I've tried on several occasions on the B744, A330 and A340 to use my handheld(s) in the cockpit, and it simply will not (cannot) receive a signal.

The scumbags may have been using a GPS handheld to get Lat/Long which they inserted into the FMS.

to answer your question, yes i have. i've seen multiple handhelds work fine in the front of a 737.

 

[aeronautic1]

Bos - Nyc

We came out of BOS a couple of weeks ago, I pointed out the left side and asked my partner to identify that long ribbon of water running south. No problem. The Hudson River. Just follow it and pretty soon just pick out the two tallest buildings; the one on fire if your the second plane...

Enough said.

Or, they could have had a Garmin Pilot III with them.

 

[Pilot124]

It is quite possible that the hijackers forced the pilots to enter the lat/long info into the FMS before killing them.

 

[FL000]

It is quite possible that the hijackers forced the pilots to enter the lat/long info into the FMS before killing them.

Doubtful that the pilots would have complied, and doubtful in terms of time, having heard the tapes between ATC and UAL93.

 

[UnAnswerd]

Doubtful that the pilots would have complied

Exactly. A request likes that makes their intentions crystal clear. No way would they have complied...knowing they'd likely die anyway.

 

[Immelman]

Exactly. A request likes that makes their intentions crystal clear. No way would they have complied...knowing they'd likely die anyway.

Not really.. think about it.. tell the pilots you're being hijacked, go direct to JFK. I mean come on, you don't need the exact coords of the WTC to find Manhattan in VFR conditions if you get anywhere near NYC proper

 

[TIS]

1.) VFR, As we all know the entire eastern seaboard was severe clear that day. If you fly westbound from Boston you will easily see the Hudson river from the flight levels. Turn left, and follow the river to the ocean, New York and the WTC would have stood out quite easily.

I dunno. Did you ever fly around NYC while the towers were there? They didn't stand out all THAT well until you were right there - even as clear as that day was. Besides, in order for this to have been the plan they would have had to wait for a day that carried a mere forecast of clear in all locations. As I said before, forecasts are not that dependable out there. I think they were prepared to make the attack under any conditions.

The second aircraft appeared to come in from the south east, possibly following the Jersey shore northbound until sighting the NYC skyline, the second plane also had the advantage of sighting the smoke plume from the first impact.

Actually, it came from the southwest (which is what I think you meant to say) after flying a big box pattern out over the middle of NJ. That smacks of some sort of precise navigational waypoint usage. That box looks to me like it's about forty to fifty miles from NYC until the final approach to the attack site. I just don't think visual navigation played a role in that attack until they were headed straight at NYC.

 

[FN FAL]

I do want to pose another question though, with the threat of terrorism still out there, should we be restraining ourselves from discussing the navigation topic in detail, on a public forum, does it make it easier for any future would be hijakers to get the straight scoop from pilots who actually fly the equipment?

Your question is muddled and just a shade gay...could you re-phrase it please?

 

[MGlobemaster]

Atta and Al-Shehhi train for three hours each at a cost of $1500, on the Boeing 727 simulator belonging to Simcenter Inc. at Opa-Locka Airport outside Miami. Each spends about 90 minutes per day on the simulator which has controls similar to a 767 .

Is everyone forgetting about this? I'm sure they learned to use the FMS while training in the sim. Programming the FMS is far from brain surgery. While they may not have learned everything about the FMS, all they would've needed to know how to do is insert the lat/long. I would bet that they used the handheld for exact coords. and the on-board nav. to guide the plane in. Also, with as much time and money as they dumped into flight training, I highly doubt they would've relied on the weather being strictly VFR throughout the whole ordeal.

 

[BushwickBill]

I have had a question regarding this for a long time. I understand how the pilots could have figured out x and y. Lat and long would be fairly easy to program. Handheld FMS whatever.... However z would be quite tough.

What i mean is

How could they have figured out the vertical navigation? My students blow that one all the time. Its fairly easy to overshoot or be to fast in a high performance airplane like a Commanche. I see my students do it often. In fact it happens sometimes in the 172 if I dont say anything to the student. Those bastards (may they rot in hell) didn't have the benifit of a glideslope some way to figure out how to plan for the decent.

My understanding of anything more advanced than a Conquest is very limited. But I do know that vertical nav is fairly tough even for seasoned pilots. Mostly because a 76 or the like is pretty slippery and would be hard to slow down.

Any thoughts on this one?

 

[fr8doggie]

Is everyone forgetting about this? I'm sure they learned to use the FMS while training in the sim. Programming the FMS is far from brain surgery. While they may not have learned everything about the FMS, all they would've needed to know how to do is insert the lat/long. I would bet that they used the handheld for exact coords. and the on-board nav. to guide the plane in. Also, with as much time and money as they dumped into flight training, I highly doubt they would've relied on the weather being strictly VFR throughout the whole ordeal.

About the only similarity between a 727 and a 75/767 is the fact that Boeing made them. You won't find an FMS in a 727 sim.

 

[ultrarunner]

Didn't they find 76/75 manuals in the car at the BOS parking garage?