How Did the 9-11 Hijackers Navigate?

[YGBSM]

But all this monkey talk makes me wonder: are you guys so hammered with SOP's that you cant even think for yourselves anymore?

I'm not the one asking how to descend from 18,000 feet without navigational guidance.

 

[BushwickBill]

I'm not the one asking how to descend from 18,000 feet without navigational guidance.

Someone is feeling mighty defensive
Imp not asking that. I'm just saying it takes some brainpower. We have all seen the different mental math methods to figure out a decent glide path. And with lots of practice you can get pretty good at it. Those of us who fly by hand and figure this stuff out on the fly wouldn't think of VNAV as a very difficult subject.

However, one of my student’s favorite features on his brand spanking new G530 is the VNAV feature. Its tells him what FPM to descend at to get to a certain altitude above a target waypoint. I guess he always screwed this one up royally because he always uses it. He cant figure out when to start his decent without it. He doesn't need to think about VNAV during the landing phase of flight. I'm sure that makes him very comfortable, but he is a fairly seasoned pilot he shouldn't need it right? A monkey could do it right? I see stuff like that and wonder how did the terrorists do it?

What I’m asking is how did those idiots pull of something a lot of my BFR and instrument students can’t pull off? I haven't done much homework but from what I have read these guys weren't that great of pilots and they pulled a real number. Considering the type of aircraft and the speeds involved I think it needs a bit of looking into. Maybe it’s more important than how they figured out where the WTC was?

 

[Yank McCobb]

Basic FMS usage is not rocket science. The 757/756 FMS can be programmed to cross a given waypoint at a certain altitude (and speed, if desired). You can either couple this to the autopilot or hand fly using any of several different different vertical deviation displays.

Again, not really that difficult with even a minimal amount of training if all you are training for is basic heading and altitude control. And VNAV, when you have the type of guidance available on these aircraft, is pretty basic control.

 

[FN FAL]

I'm not the one asking how to descend from 18,000 feet without navigational guidance.

If you have to ask, you probably wouldn't understand anyway.

A couple of times I have ridden up in King Airs to 21,000 feet MSL, took my oxygen mask off, did the hunch back shuffle to the back of the plane, dealt with the exit, freefalled for almost two minutes and still managed to land within walking distance of my tent. No GPS, no FMS, no VOR, no NDB, no charts, no INS.

 

[millhouse21]

Actually, I think the questions about VNAV are not that stupid. There is a lot of scope to screw that up and, in fact, it happened all the time in WW2 with the Kamikazis. A surpising number of them either hit the water before their target or flew over it. Of course, the sept 11 problem was much simplified by the target being (1) Huge (2) having extensive vertical development and (3) not shooting at you. It also helped that they clearly didn't mind overspeeding the airplane.
Having said that, I am actually really surprised that the 2nd guy managed to hit the building. Every time I see that video I keep hoping he will just clip a wing a go spiraling into the water. He can't keep hitting it every time, can he?

 

[TDTURBO]

to answer your question, yes i have. i've seen multiple handhelds work fine in the front of a 737.

I agree, even if the windscreen that has composite materials that block GPS, I can tell you for sure that my 295 works in all commercial aircraft when I put it near a passenger window. All they had to do was communicate between the terrorist in the cabin with the handheld and the terrorist pilots flying.

 

[BushwickBill]

Actually, I think the questions about VNAV are not that stupid

ooohhh ohhh uh er duh.... me NOT stupid oh oh oh! Im going to tell all my friends der uhhhh. Me pilot. Me good.

 

[LXApilot]

How AA11 Navigated? Give me a break!

VNAV, GPS, LAT/LONG, FMS... you guys are killing me.

It's not really that incredible that they flew these airplanes into their targets. If you take off from Boston westbound, by the time you are on course and climbing through the mid-20s you've got the Hudson in-sight. Then it's a straight shot down the corridor to southern Manhattan. Turn an airplane around over northern Ohio and climb a little (reported at FL410) and fly eastbound a few minutes and guess what? You can see the east coast - ESPECIALLY on a severe clear day like that. As far as descent planning goes - hello, all these fools did was push it over and hold it there. These guys were all over the place, no FMS nor autopilot engaged. These guys wanted VFR weather because they wanted tv and media to drive home the fear into the American citizens. They probably looked into www.weather.com and the 10 day outlook, maybe even watched Tom Skilling on WGN. When they heard it was nice weather coming they bought some tickets. I mean, come on people. Even if they didn't rely on VFR navigation, they could have used some kind of handhelds, I've gotten them to work on the B757 before. G295. They were trained pilots and using the FMS isn't brain surgery. I knew how to use the FMS in a 777 from FlightSim before I ever walked into FlightSafety to learn a thing about any magic box. Scratchpad = KJFK, then direct, execute. Follow the little purple line. These guys didn't care about overstressing or the capabilities of the airplanes. They almost missed tower 2 of the WTC because they were too fast, out of trim, and outside their envelope. You give them way too much credit! It's not brain surgery - just put the nose where you want your airplane to go. In the word's of Tony Blair "their barbaric acts will stand as their ultimate shame for all time".

 

[Captain Overs]

Here's an interesting article about Flight 11.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/redux.html

David Graham is not credible. It's not "What really happened". The reason these people go to the internet is because they can make crap up. Nobody would ever publish his bullshit because they would be held accountable by an editor. You have to be able to back up your facts with proof.

 

[redd]

Yeah, it's a real "interesting" article, it had some detailed info on what happened right after the hijacking, but Graham puts a real spin on events, some not even logical, really out there.

I think there has been some supression of evidence for political reasons with other air tragedies, but not as wild as the speculations and conclusions that this guy is spewing.

Good entertainment value though.