How Did the 9-11 Hijackers Navigate?

[groundpointsix]

And to the user that suggested they used the Lat/Longs to enter into the FMS. Having never used a Boeing FMS, would this be something easily done, or would this require a bit of training on their part to be able to figure out? I can't imagine that they'd just be able to sit down and for the first time punch in some cooridnates and fly direct to them.

I'm not familiar with the FMS on the Boeing, but I would imagine all it probably takes is a few minutes to learn the series of keystrokes to do it. I'd bet that if you typed in the model number on google or checked ebay or the manufacturer's website you'd probably come up with a user's guide and or a demo program.

 

[WMUchickenhawk]

I had always heard that the flights leaving from Boston used the Hudson to fly down to New York.

 

[TIS]

There's something NONE of you are thinking about

Anyway, the hijackers were all trained pilots, they could find NYC on a clear day.

Yeah, probably true. But I have two observations. The first is that - and anyone who has flown anywhere near NYC or DC can tell you - these cities are NOWHERE near as impressive from the air as they are from the ground. NYC is surprisingly difficult to pick up until you're less than 20 miles away - EVEN on a clear day. DC is the same way. Being down low compounds this problem.

Speaking of being down low, this brings me to my second and more important point; How often is it reliably clear and a million on the ENTIRE eastern seaboard? The fact is - and again, anyone familiar with flying there will agree - that days like September 11 are few and far between. The Wx may be fine in BOS but that's no guarantee about NYC or DCA, and vice-versa.

The bottom line is that these guys were prepared to carry out this attack rain or shine. Shine was better but given their need to begin positioning themselves well before daybreak that day, they had to rely on forecasts - which are notoriously inaccurate pretty much anywhere in the northeast corridor. They had to have been ready for a rainy day, a hazy day, thunderstorms, etc.

They simply had to have been ready to use the on-board guidance in the planes to achieve their goals. Now, they may not have done that all that skillfully but they did it well enough to get within visual range of their targets.

Perhaps I'm making too many assumptions but these guys went to the trouble of learning to fly. Surely they could take a little more time and learn how to ENSURE their success in ANY attack they might make.

TIS

 

[sf3boy]

I know of a guy that works in the FBI and on this stuff. He said they had bought hand held GPS's and went to the targets and wrote down the lat/long.


Break into the cockpit, murder, type for 10 seconds, hit direct, hit enter. Nothing to difficult to do.

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

VERY Good FMS trainers are available on Flight Simulator By Microsoft...

 

[redd]

I want to pose another question, with the threat of terrorism still out there, should we be restraining ourselves from discussing the navigation topic in detail on a public forum, does it make it easier for any future would be hijakers to get the straight scoop from pilots who actually fly the equipment?

 

[Makesheepnervus]

IMO there were 2 ways the hijackers could have navigated to the towers;

1.) VFR, As we all know the entire eastern seaboard was severe clear that day. If you fly westbound from Boston you will easily see the Hudson river from the flight levels. Turn left, and follow the river to the ocean, New York and the WTC would have stood out quite easily. The second aircraft appeared to come in from the south east, possibly following the Jersey shore northbound until sighting the NYC skyline, the second plane also had the advantage of sighting the smoke plume from the first impact.

2.) Use the FMS, this one is even easier. It is apparent from the investigation that the Hijackers had access to the 767 and 757 flight manuals and quite likely the FMS's as well. With the Lat / longs for the two seperate towers in hand, which they could have gotten using a handheld GPS at the locations as a previous post mentioned, or even from the internet, one simply does the following;
a.) (Hell, you think I'm going to tell you Islamofacists how to do it?)

The **** now displays the direct course to the towers, engage **** on the autopilot and watch.

 

[414Flyer]

That was the only recorded video of the hit, and it was taken by French filmakers Jules and Gedeon Naudet, who were filming a documentary on a new firefighter recruit. Of course, the movie takes a whole new twist after the attack, and it is one of the most riveting pieces of history ever filmed. It is called simply 9/11. After the first hit, they film from inside the North Tower with exclusive access to the firefighters involved until the bitter end. I own it and watch it every so often from start to finish. It's a must see.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0312318/

I get teary eyed every time I see the inital hits. Never F'ing forget.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc-people-hanging-photo5-5d-right-800h.jpg

I watched that film in a firefighting class. I highly, highly recommend it, especially for those here or are/have been in firefighting, or have an interest in it.

 

[dash8driver]

Have any of you actually TRIED to use a handheld in a 757/767/737/747/A330/A340 cockpit? I bet you haven't, because THEY DON'T WORK!

Why? The windscreens are made out of several sandwiched layers, glass, adhesive, plexiglass and GOLD or Tin Oxide (the heating element) which effectively blocks the antenna. I've tried on several occasions on the B744, A330 and A340 to use my handheld(s) in the cockpit, and it simply will not (cannot) receive a signal.

The scumbags may have been using a GPS handheld to get Lat/Long which they inserted into the FMS.

to answer your question, yes i have. i've seen multiple handhelds work fine in the front of a 737.

 

[aeronautic1]

Bos - Nyc

We came out of BOS a couple of weeks ago, I pointed out the left side and asked my partner to identify that long ribbon of water running south. No problem. The Hudson River. Just follow it and pretty soon just pick out the two tallest buildings; the one on fire if your the second plane...

Enough said.

Or, they could have had a Garmin Pilot III with them.

 

[Pilot124]

It is quite possible that the hijackers forced the pilots to enter the lat/long info into the FMS before killing them.

 

[FL000]

It is quite possible that the hijackers forced the pilots to enter the lat/long info into the FMS before killing them.

Doubtful that the pilots would have complied, and doubtful in terms of time, having heard the tapes between ATC and UAL93.

 

[UnAnswerd]

Doubtful that the pilots would have complied

Exactly. A request likes that makes their intentions crystal clear. No way would they have complied...knowing they'd likely die anyway.

 

[Immelman]

Exactly. A request likes that makes their intentions crystal clear. No way would they have complied...knowing they'd likely die anyway.

Not really.. think about it.. tell the pilots you're being hijacked, go direct to JFK. I mean come on, you don't need the exact coords of the WTC to find Manhattan in VFR conditions if you get anywhere near NYC proper

 

[TIS]

1.) VFR, As we all know the entire eastern seaboard was severe clear that day. If you fly westbound from Boston you will easily see the Hudson river from the flight levels. Turn left, and follow the river to the ocean, New York and the WTC would have stood out quite easily.

I dunno. Did you ever fly around NYC while the towers were there? They didn't stand out all THAT well until you were right there - even as clear as that day was. Besides, in order for this to have been the plan they would have had to wait for a day that carried a mere forecast of clear in all locations. As I said before, forecasts are not that dependable out there. I think they were prepared to make the attack under any conditions.

The second aircraft appeared to come in from the south east, possibly following the Jersey shore northbound until sighting the NYC skyline, the second plane also had the advantage of sighting the smoke plume from the first impact.

Actually, it came from the southwest (which is what I think you meant to say) after flying a big box pattern out over the middle of NJ. That smacks of some sort of precise navigational waypoint usage. That box looks to me like it's about forty to fifty miles from NYC until the final approach to the attack site. I just don't think visual navigation played a role in that attack until they were headed straight at NYC.

 

[FN FAL]

I do want to pose another question though, with the threat of terrorism still out there, should we be restraining ourselves from discussing the navigation topic in detail, on a public forum, does it make it easier for any future would be hijakers to get the straight scoop from pilots who actually fly the equipment?

Your question is muddled and just a shade gay...could you re-phrase it please?

 

[MGlobemaster]

Atta and Al-Shehhi train for three hours each at a cost of $1500, on the Boeing 727 simulator belonging to Simcenter Inc. at Opa-Locka Airport outside Miami. Each spends about 90 minutes per day on the simulator which has controls similar to a 767 .

Is everyone forgetting about this? I'm sure they learned to use the FMS while training in the sim. Programming the FMS is far from brain surgery. While they may not have learned everything about the FMS, all they would've needed to know how to do is insert the lat/long. I would bet that they used the handheld for exact coords. and the on-board nav. to guide the plane in. Also, with as much time and money as they dumped into flight training, I highly doubt they would've relied on the weather being strictly VFR throughout the whole ordeal.

 

[BushwickBill]

I have had a question regarding this for a long time. I understand how the pilots could have figured out x and y. Lat and long would be fairly easy to program. Handheld FMS whatever.... However z would be quite tough.

What i mean is

How could they have figured out the vertical navigation? My students blow that one all the time. Its fairly easy to overshoot or be to fast in a high performance airplane like a Commanche. I see my students do it often. In fact it happens sometimes in the 172 if I dont say anything to the student. Those bastards (may they rot in hell) didn't have the benifit of a glideslope some way to figure out how to plan for the decent.

My understanding of anything more advanced than a Conquest is very limited. But I do know that vertical nav is fairly tough even for seasoned pilots. Mostly because a 76 or the like is pretty slippery and would be hard to slow down.

Any thoughts on this one?

 

[fr8doggie]

Is everyone forgetting about this? I'm sure they learned to use the FMS while training in the sim. Programming the FMS is far from brain surgery. While they may not have learned everything about the FMS, all they would've needed to know how to do is insert the lat/long. I would bet that they used the handheld for exact coords. and the on-board nav. to guide the plane in. Also, with as much time and money as they dumped into flight training, I highly doubt they would've relied on the weather being strictly VFR throughout the whole ordeal.

About the only similarity between a 727 and a 75/767 is the fact that Boeing made them. You won't find an FMS in a 727 sim.

 

[ultrarunner]

Didn't they find 76/75 manuals in the car at the BOS parking garage?