Houston G3 crash info

[100-1/2]

"GV"?!?

Isn't that the identifier for one of those little SEL Grummans?


Tiger? I think it is? Or, maybe a "Cheetah"?

20K+ hours in that and you are not quite around the world even once.

I didn't and haven't found any reference in any of the CVR transcripts where these guys x-checked the FAF to GS intercept. If they did and got a good GS indication where it was supposed to be, man that would be a real rough deal. Ditto on the Tune and ID full time. If you bother to tune it, before your hand leaves the com/nav stack, you otta be pullin the ident. In any weather. We are professionals, right?

Feel for the families and their needless loss. Let us all be students of their demise rather than judges.

100-1/2


Sorry, GV, couldn't resist. I think the grummans are the most disrespected by ATC with regard to their ID and felt compelled to redirect the thread.

100-1/2

 

[ackattacker]

I like your post, good comebacks, not true, but very good. The two above I will respond to.



1. Ask the CEOs of Enron, Worldcom, HealthSouth, etc., I think you'll find that they are ALL working for someone, quite a bit harder than us, and some of them have ended up in jail. It aint loading bags, but...Now, if you choose to be in the fast food industry, I would say being a regional manager, or something like that, would be rising to the top.



2. I am in this industry because I love airplanes and flying. If it was for time and money, I would be in something else. You would argue that? I am driven to work as a pilot because I love BEING a pilot. That is all. And if this is to be my chosen industry, than I would aspire to climb to the top, as I would if I were a sanitation engineer. Ever since I had my first lesson in a Taylorcraft, I looked up at the bigger planes and thought...someday...

How about you, ackattacker? Perhaps not.

Nice that you pick and choose which of my points to rebut... whereas I rebuted ALL of your points... but I'll continue.

1. My point was that it is easy to define a relatively narrow range to include yourself at the top. By defining your entire scope of career possibilities to be pilot in the private aviation industry, you've defined yourself to be at or near the top in terms of aircraft size and probably pay scale. Now, maybe you truly are at the top of the career ladder that you've envisioned for yourself. But that doesn't mean that every aircraft you've flown previously and every job you've held previously is a stepping stone which a person either overcomes or gets hung up on. People have different ideas about what the ideal job is, even among pilots. In fact, a lot of non-aviation people might look at a career corporate pilot and wonder what defect the pilot has that he/she didn't move into a more managerial position (Chief Pilot, etc.) or into the airlines.

2. I am also in this industry because I love airplanes and flying. I don't think I said anything which contradicts this. Love of flying is big part of my job satisfaction. I suppose the desire to fly bigger and faster airplanes is there too... but it is tempered by some realities. Number one is that the most fun to be had in flying is in the smaller airplanes. I think you will get little argument on this one from most pilots. The bigger the airplane, the more boring the job. That 777 corporate pilot may have the biggest corporate plane, but he logs the least amount of "real" flying. The real reason for flying bigger and faster planes is because you GET PAID MORE. Probably to support your Taylorcraft sitting at your home-town grass-strip. So I would say that a lot of us really are in it for the money and the "time off", in addition to a love of flying. I would challange you, "Ace", that if someone was to pay you the same as you make now to give airplane rides in a Stearman, you'd probably take it in a heartbeat.

You pointed out that a CEO, at the top of his or her profession, is working extremely hard with little time off and often risking jail time to do it. Now do you really want that job? I don't. And not everybody wants a job in a G-V either. At my current job, I'm home EVERY NIGHT. I get lots of time off to travel (compared to a typical 9-5 job) and I travel nearly for free. I get to fly for a living and work with a nice bunch of people. I live in a tropical paradise, and I make enough to support my current lifestyle. All the light beer and frozen pizza a man could want! But I suppose I'm defective since I don't want your job, where I could stare at the autopilot for 12 hour stretches and collect shampoo bottles from exotic hotels. Maybe I'll think differently when I have a couple ex-wives to support, but for now, no!

 

[Duderino]

Cream of the Crop.

I heard this very captain had some issues. God rest his sole, but I know a friend of a friend whose sister was at thirty one flavors last night who told me there was an incident with the steering and ran off the runway. A friend of a friend was on board, and refused to fly with this captain after this flight.

Dude

 

[ackattacker]

Cream of the Crop.

I heard this very captain had some issues. God rest his sole, but I know a friend of a friend whose sister was at thirty one flavors last night who told me there was an incident with the steering and ran off the runway. A friend of a friend was on board, and refused to fly with this captain after this flight.

Dude

It did seem from the CVR transcript that when the sheet hit the fan the FO quickly realized what was going on while the captain seemed lost and bewildered. But the FO was the one who set up the radios and he set it up wrong, apparently. And he encouraged the captain to continue. At the end, the FO appeared to be coaching the captain right into the ground. What a senseless loss. It's easy to armchair quarterback these accidents, and I don't mean to disparage the skills of Gulfstream pilots or even these pilots in particular. We all make mistakes and with luck we learn from them and move on, with bad luck other people learn from them and move on... "There but for the grace of God go I".

 

[GV-Ace]

Maybe I'll think differently when I have a couple ex-wives to support, but for now, no!

Perhaps you will.

 

[GV-Ace]

It did seem from the CVR transcript that when the sheet hit the fan the FO quickly realized what was going on while the captain seemed lost and bewildered. But the FO was the one who set up the radios and he set it up wrong, apparently. And he encouraged the captain to continue. At the end, the FO appeared to be coaching the captain right into the ground. What a senseless loss. It's easy to armchair quarterback these accidents, and I don't mean to disparage the skills of Gulfstream pilots or even these pilots in particular. We all make mistakes and with luck we learn from them and move on, with bad luck other people learn from them and move on... "There but for the grace of God go I".

Complacency, plain and simple. After reading the transcripts, that is what it seems to be. These guys were older, high-time, not used to this EFIS system, and both used to being in charge. In the military, the worst thing was when the General wanted to take the controls. Now, put a chief pilot and a director of ops. in the plane as a crew, and watch out. The copilot was trying to talk the captain into continuing and the captain was befuddled and letting himself be led. We all should learn from this accident. Back to the basics!

 

[Otter]

CA was the prior CP, and The SIC (Co-capt) was the current CP. Neither was DO to my understanding. Not that it changes the outcome, just for clarity.

 

[501261]

Flame??

but all of the pilots that I've met that have high time and are still in a small(er) plane, have SOMETHING wrong with their flying or their personality.

This has got to be flame bate!

I would say ask your friends flying the GV if they would rather stay domestically, flying 15 days a month, home every night, with the same pay and benefits that a heavy pilot jet has. Or would they rather fly 12 hour legs being gone 20 days at a time, having to deal with all the “fun” that comes with flying into international, just so they can fly a GV. But with an ego like yours I doubt you have many friends.

The reality is that heavy jets usually pay better and that all adds into the equation of what you want out of your life. However, for everything in aviation there certainly are exceptions, like those 600 hour GIV drivers for certain VNY based charter operation that PFT and are making $28K a year, are they the “cream of the crop”, they're flying Gulfstreams?

For me flying is no where near the top of the list, I want to be the best dad, the best husband, and mostly being happy. Hell, pay me enough, with all the QOL issues and I’ll even happily fly a WSCoD!

I realized this back in 1999, when I had the opportunity to become the CP for a C604 operation. This Challenger has since become a Global and I have absolutely no regrets turning them down.

It obviously helps that my base salary is based at on the 95% of the NBAA Heavy Jet Captain, even though I only fly a lowly light jet.

I don’t know, I guess for me the flying aspect of corporate aviation has simply never been exciting enough to “rise to the top.” If I want to have fun flying I’ll hop into an Extra 300 or Blanik.

I will say this, in a very general rule, you are correct. A very experienced guy flying a Lear 25 on charter, may very well have “issues”. Some may even have what I call it Avbugism (very experienced, but can’t interact with people).

 

[English]

This has got to be flame bate!

I would say ask your friends flying the GV if they would rather stay domestically, flying 15 days a month, home every night, with the same pay and benefits that a heavy pilot jet has. Or would they rather fly 12 hour legs being gone 20 days at a time, having to deal with all the “fun” that comes with flying into international, just so they can fly a GV. But with an ego like yours I doubt you have many friends.

The reality is that heavy jets usually pay better and that all adds into the equation of what you want out of your life. However, for everything in aviation there certainly are exceptions, like those 600 hour GIV drivers for certain VNY based charter operation that PFT and are making $28K a year, are they the “cream of the crop”, they're flying Gulfstreams?

For me flying is no where near the top of the list, I want to be the best dad, the best husband, and mostly being happy. Hell, pay me enough, with all the QOL issues and I’ll even happily fly a WSCoD!

I realized this back in 1999, when I had the opportunity to become the CP for a C604 operation. This Challenger has since become a Global and I have absolutely no regrets turning them down.

It obviously helps that my base salary is based at on the 95% of the NBAA Heavy Jet Captain, even though I only fly a lowly light jet.

I don’t know, I guess for me the flying aspect of corporate aviation has simply never been exciting enough to “rise to the top.” If I want to have fun flying I’ll hop into an Extra 300 or Blanik.

I will say this, in a very general rule, you are correct. A very experienced guy flying a Lear 25 on charter, may very well have “issues”. Some may even have what I call it Avbugism (very experienced, but can’t interact with people).

hee hee....we think alot alike.

 

[flyguy75000]

What's a WSCoD?

 

[English]

Embraer Legacy, aka Whistling $hitcan of Death....

Refer to the Legacy Bashfest for more information.

 

[GV-Ace]

This has got to be flame bate!

I would say ask your friends flying the GV if they would rather stay domestically, flying 15 days a month, home every night, with the same pay and benefits that a heavy pilot jet has. Or would they rather fly 12 hour legs being gone 20 days at a time, having to deal with all the “fun” that comes with flying into international, just so they can fly a GV. But with an ego like yours I doubt you have many friends.

The reality is that heavy jets usually pay better and that all adds into the equation of what you want out of your life. However, for everything in aviation there certainly are exceptions, like those 600 hour GIV drivers for certain VNY based charter operation that PFT and are making $28K a year, are they the “cream of the crop”, they're flying Gulfstreams?

For me flying is no where near the top of the list, I want to be the best dad, the best husband, and mostly being happy. Hell, pay me enough, with all the QOL issues and I’ll even happily fly a WSCoD!

I realized this back in 1999, when I had the opportunity to become the CP for a C604 operation. This Challenger has since become a Global and I have absolutely no regrets turning them down.

It obviously helps that my base salary is based at on the 95% of the NBAA Heavy Jet Captain, even though I only fly a lowly light jet.

I don’t know, I guess for me the flying aspect of corporate aviation has simply never been exciting enough to “rise to the top.” If I want to have fun flying I’ll hop into an Extra 300 or Blanik.

I will say this, in a very general rule, you are correct. A very experienced guy flying a Lear 25 on charter, may very well have “issues”. Some may even have what I call it Avbugism (very experienced, but can’t interact with people).

No argument there, there are many crews that would rather sit at home and make $150K per year, than fly an international GV. I’m not one of them. But, get your facts straight, or, until you actually fly one, listen to someone who does. Gulfstream tracks the average leg-length flown by each of its aircraft models. The GV fleet averages lest than 2 hours to each landing. Yes, once in a while we push the range, but mostly we’re flying a nice mix of domestic and international trips. I fly about 12 days per month. It’s the Lear charter guys that are gone all the time (I’ve heard them say that if they get home after their kids are asleep, they might as well have been overnight).



As I’ve said before, there are bad operators who have under qualified pilots in big planes, no doubt. I’ll I’m saying is that if you’re gonna be a lawyer, being a Partner may not be for everyone, but it is absolutely the top of that field. Flying the most expensive private jet (and hopefully making one of the biggest paychecks), is the top of being a corporate pilot. Period.



PS, I don’t see any BBJ, Gulfstream or Global pilots arguing that last paragraph.

 

[flyguy75000]

Probably because they arent such egotistical pr*cks like yourself, ACEhole.

 

[GV-Ace]

Probably because they arent such egotistical pr*cks like yourself, ACEhole.

Nice. All that education really paid off.

So, what you are saying is that the other heavy jet pilots wouldn't argue my point about 'top of industry' because they don't have egos. You would have to have a big ego to say my point is wrong? Therefore, you are saying that people like youself, who DO argue that point, are, how did you put it, "egotistical pr*cks".

Brilliant!

 

[PC12Cowboy]

Hmmm...instead of playing bash the other guy....Focus needs to remain on ONE subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The loss of TWO pilots and ONE flight attendant...and the CAUSE and REASONS behind SUCH TRAGEDY......
So that we as PILOTS can learn and AVOID such circumstances.....
So put away your cocks stow your egos and please remember WE ARE responsible for many other lives both on the ground and in the air

FLY SAFE and TUNE,VERIFY,IDENTIFY
A humble pilot who loves to fly
COWBOY

 

[gern_blanston]

I took a bunch of grief from the sim instructor last year at FSI recurrent because I ID'd the navs prior to a single-engine ILS. "You guys are way too busy to be f#(king around with that $h!t. You don't need to do that in this day of FMS's. The airplane knows where it is." Seriously.
We had a quite a discussion at the debrief. It's part of our SOP to ID the doggone things. It doesn't cost a cent, and you can do it in 10 seconds. Saved us from embarassment (or worse) going in to Toronto one night a couple years ago after 3 runway swaps with approach control. The nav freq's only got changed twice, and Captain Bob ID'd 'em 10 miles out and said, "Hey, something's wrong here."
Good cheap insurance!

 

[GV-Ace]

I took a bunch of grief from the sim instructor last year at FSI recurrent because I ID'd the navs prior to a single-engine ILS. "You guys are way too busy to be f#(king around with that $h!t. You don't need to do that in this day of FMS's. The airplane knows where it is." Seriously.
We had a quite a discussion at the debrief. It's part of our SOP to ID the doggone things. It doesn't cost a cent, and you can do it in 10 seconds. Saved us from embarassment (or worse) going in to Toronto one night a couple years ago after 3 runway swaps with approach control. The nav freq's only got changed twice, and Captain Bob ID'd 'em 10 miles out and said, "Hey, something's wrong here."
Good cheap insurance!

Most modern jets will ID the station for you without having to listen to it. The GV does, and I would imagine the F200 would for you too if you look into it.

 

[gern_blanston]

The NZ-equipped F2TH does not auto-tune or ID the navs.

 

[some_dude]

Are you saying it doesn't display the ident somewhere on the EFIS, if the facility is DME-equipped? I find that very hard to believe. Even the lame first generation EFIS units that I've been using recently do that.

Hell, some non-EFIS DME units will do that.

The NZ-equipped F2TH does not auto-tune or ID the navs.

 

[gern_blanston]

OK, my bad. What I meant was that our EFIS does not necessarily give you the currently tuned VHF nav ID, while the Morse-Code identifier always does. Our EFIS shows the ID of the VHF nav that the DME is locked on to. It sometimes locks onto a neighboring localizer with the same freq until you're in close, and, of course, if you've got 'DME hold' engaged, it displays the the 'held' ID. In this situation, a crew could be looking at something different from what they think they're seeing, especially at the end of a long day. For example an airport where you hold the VOR DME to get distance fixes on the approach. So what the EFIS is showing varies from approach to approach. This is just one of the little things that our SOP's take into account. If the localizer doesn't have DME, we discuss holding the dme if approriate. Otherwise, the call is 'FMS distance', and we always ID the navs.