Houston G3 crash info

[jimcav]

Amen to that.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Basic airmanship would have solved this.

ID the station.
Go missed when you realized something was wrong, not continue.

I don't quite put it in the 'mistake' category. We must call a spade a spade. As pilots, we must not fall victim to the need to venerate the dead at the expense of common sense. Complacency kills, as we can see. "Accidents" like this are inexcusable.

Additionally, screwups like this certainly "lower the bar" in terms of the public perception of the professionalism and competence of pilots. If I were John Q. Public and read this, I would think that these guys were a couple of dupes who had no idea what was going on. You may attack me over this, but it only really matters what the public THINKS about us. It is incumbent on us to guard ourselves so that we do not develop an ATTITUDE of complacency that fosters this kind of "accident".

I pity the poor flight attendant and her family.

 

[User546]

I will take a high time pilot that is complacent, over some young PUNK with < 1500 hrs. Its COMMON SENSE. You my VERY YOUNG friend have alot to learn.

Absolutely I have a lot to learn - so did you at my hours and experience. I'm not claiming to have 20,000 hours and typed in every major business aircraft.

What is it with all these Gulfstream pilots that have such big chips on their shoulders?

I hope I didn't offend your kind with that statement about the two high-time guys were probably complacent. If you re-read it again, you will notice at the end that I put that it was a statement in general and not necessarily towards the two involved.

All I did was merely offer my opinion, based on my very little experience in your big aviation world. Don't get all worked up over it - you might blow your next physical next time if you let little stuff like that get to you.

 

[GIVSP]

Yup, your going far in this business. Sounds like you have the chip, with really no reason to have a chip. Good luck, your going to need it with your attitude.

 

[Dumbledore]

What is it with all these Gulfstream pilots that have such big chips on their shoulders?

Because they know that not everyone can become a Gulfstream pilot.

Look, the deal here is that NO ONE flew the plane in such a way as to keep it from hitting the ground. Both of these guys were working a problem that should have been worked by ONE of them while the other one flew the plane until they had it sorted out.

Procedurally, that's just how it has to be - your top priority is to fly the plane. All that other stuff that we experienced guys get so complacent about doesn't matter if you don't do at least that much.

 

[LXJ31]

I love jalapeno chips, the really crunchy ones.

I don't think anyone here is blaming the pilots for making "a" mistake. If all it took was one mistake to bring down an airplane, there would be smoking holes everywhere. I think the feds will identify an error string that will implicate more than just the crew, although sadly, they will shoulder all the blame since they can't fight back. Now that the event has happened, some time and distance from the accident has gone by and people shouldn't be afraid to ask questions.

1. Its been said they had never flown this particular Gulfstream. Were they familiar with the avionics package? If they weren't, were they given time to learn it? If they were, why didn't they and if they weren't, why not?

2. Were they rested? Were they medicated or sick?

3. Did this crew fly together often? If they did, did they get along or was there tension? (I ask this because the PF asked the PNF "What did you do to me?", almost sounds like an accusation, when they started to lose SA. I don't think any crew I fly with would do that; once we were aware of such problems, we'd miss the approach. Any sort of blame game would take place on the ground.)

4. Two ultra-experienced pilots flying together. To some people, this might seem like an environment where either would be very unlikely to fess up to making an error for fear of "losing face" in front of his contemporary. To others, there is no safer environment than having two of the world's most experienced Gulfstream pilots operating your aircraft since they are unlikely to make such errors.

5. Age. It can't be helped, they were among the older active biz jet pilots, could this be a factor? Its my opinion that while we should not have a mandatory retirement age, there should be an age at which, for class I medicals, a cognition test should be required. Some people age early, some people are sharp till the day they die.

 

[User546]

Yup, your going far in this business. Sounds like you have the chip, with really no reason to have a chip. Good luck, your going to need it with your attitude.

I'm not the one that's going around calling someone a PUNK just cause he voiced his OPINION. I respect everyone's opinion, especially those with more hours and experience then me. That's the chip and attitude I'm talking about.

Thanks for actually contributing LXJ, those were some great questions I'd like to see some answers to. The final report down the road should be a good read for all of us.

 

[Flechas]

Yup, your going far in this business. Sounds like you have the chip, with really no reason to have a chip. Good luck, your going to need it with your attitude.

I will take a high time pilot that is complacent, over some young PUNK with < 1500 hrs. Its COMMON SENSE. You my VERY YOUNG friend have alot to learn.

I think you are the one that needs an attitude check, OLD PUNK!!
Like User said, you had less than 1500 once too.

 

[Dumbledore]

Here's the deal with G-IIIs (and IIs)

If you've been in one of them ... you've been in just that one. They're all outfitted differently and in-depth knowledge of exactly HOW a particular plane is set up often pays huge dividends.

I know of one G-III out here that has a set of old Carousel INS units in it married to a VERY early version of Honeywell's 5 tube EFIS. Now here's one oddity that'll take the wind out of your sails in a hurry if you don't know it's coming. If you switch the INS to ATT REF mode it disables the VORs - they just die! You've still got the FMSs though.

Now, if that wasn't enough, once you do this and figure out that you've got no more VOR capability, you assume that that's it, right? WRONG. The localizer receiver is unaffected - same with the GS. So you can go out and shoot a perfectly good ILS.

My point is that if you're new to a particular serial number GIII, that fact alone can be a very distracting thing if not dangerous.

Remember, If you've been in one Gulfstream, you've been in ONE Gulfstream!

 

[japhy]

I got to ask, although I'm sure not many people will admit, but how many people really IDENTIFY the station.

If the ceilings are below 1000 I always listen, and check the the identifer.

 

[ultrarunner]

These two very experienced pilots, 19,000 hrs each, had never flown this particular G-3. As I understand it the EFIS system was new to them and also unlike the other G-3 they flew. I've heard that to connect the ILS to the flight director required some unusual switching. Mistakenly it is suspected that although they tuned in the ILS, they did not know it wasn't connected to the flight director and followed instead the angle of attack indicator flag (fast/slow) and flew a perfect angle of attack into the ground. It turns out the flight director was connected to the VOR not the ILS.

This is not official and is obtained from various sources at DAL. This is the scoop anyway.

Classic low life sleepzy charter crapola...throw some crew into some bird with a different FMC or VHF/FD config/switching panel, and NOT TRAINING ON SUCH, and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

And it did.

Way to go!

I hope you fukers are proud of yourselves...whoever you are.

 

[GIVSP]

Flechas, User997, The world needs cessna pilots also. To all the GULFSTREAM pilots out there, HAPPY EASTER.

 

[h25b]

Flechas, User997, The world needs cessna pilots also. To all the GULFSTREAM pilots out there, HAPPY EASTER.

Oh, you're a Gulfstream pilot.... REALLY. WOW, gee whiz how cool is that...

(...insert sound of me throwing you a quarter...)

Now call someone who gives a squat. Gulfstream pilots are like every other pilot in this business, a dime a dozen.

Get a grip on the ego man, cemeteries are full of people who thought the world couldn't get by without them.

 

[GIVSP]

Its very cool thanks. The world needs Lear drivers also. God you people are easy. Lets see who gets excited next.

 

[jumper52]

user997.

it should always be standard practice to tune and i.d. and get the full i.d. NOT just a part of it. It will save your life. be safe and happy flying!!!