Hold on tight

[onetimer]

So, we are going by date of hire!? So will the flight options pilot list be redone. As an RTA pilot I have lots of people above me that have a later date of hire!!!!

 

[Fresh Air]

Yes, but the law of the land is different depending on wether or not CS decertifiys the Teamsters. If we remain Teamsters we would get the shaft in a merger with Options. If we decertify, not so much.

According to the lawyers last night, that's not true, the issue would be handled the same whether you are represented or not, thanks to M-B, as long as FO management didn't try to pull something underhanded on you, which you would have to fight in court.

Anyway, it's all speculative. Maybe FO will only purchase 49 percent of CS assets, and you will be on the street putting in apps with American Eagle instead of having to worry about the evil Teamsters.

 

[outerfix]

Fresh Air, I find it hard to believe that you would be unhappy with a deal that places over 90 percent of CS pilots below the furlough line on a combined list.

 

[Fresh Air]

So, we are going by date of hire!? So will the flight options pilot list be redone. As an RTA pilot I have lots of people above me that have a later date of hire!!!!

That question was asked. The Union has no interest in redoing our seniority list because they don't want to upset the original FO people who came out ahead on that one.

However that issue is one of many that will be considered in any merger situation, presumably to take in account the concerns of the original RTA pilot group.

 

[outerfix]

Fresh air you need to read your contract and McCaskil-Bond. The Teamster position is the same in both cases but if we are not Teamsters, an arbitrator gets to decide and I guarantee you we will do better then DOH with fences.

 

[Fresh Air]

Fresh Air, I find it hard to believe that you would be unhappy with a deal that places over 90 percent of CS pilots below the furlough line on a combined list.

I'm not as nice as our Union leaders. Under Teamsters policy you get to keep your big paychecks and stay in your big airplanes. I would prefer a seat flush, which would put you in a Phenom at best, furloughed at worst, and me in a Sovereign. But that's not going to happen, and I accept that.

 

[Fresh Air]

Fresh air you need to read your contract and McCaskil-Bond. The Teamster position is the same in both cases but if we are not Teamsters, an arbitrator gets to decide and I guarantee you we will do better then DOH with fences.

Nah, my dues money pays lawyers to interpret that stuff.

 

[Fresh Air]

Well, it's been fun. I've shared some info to the best of my ability, but don't want to degenerate into the usual pro/anti Union squabbling. Time to do something other than type.

Good Luck, all!

 

[outerfix]

Not to worry, we probably will get flushed as fleets change and you will get your wish. The problem is you will have 250 pilots who will blame the Teamsters, with good reason, for their demise.

 

[outerfix]

Agreed, I don't take anything personally, you shouldn't either. It's just business.

 

[Club ORD FO]

So, is the the Flight options union going to fight the Flex as a separate company thing and try to merge the two?

 

[Praetorian]

Yes, but the law of the land is different depending on wether or not CS decertifiys the Teamsters. If we remain Teamsters we would get the shaft in a merger with Options. If we decertify, not so much.

I think, since much of this was discussed on the unions call last night and is now in the public domain, I'll try to get you straightened out.

The FO CBA says the following about how the lists will be integrated if FO acquires an unrepresented group: "...if the Pilots of the acquired airline are not represented by the IBT, then pursuant to Sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions."

Remember, if the CA pilots decertify the FO pilots will still be represented by the IBT and their contract would govern how the seniority list is integrated. Given that Allegheny-Mohawk stipulates a fair and equitable seniority list integration and since courts and arbitrators have considered a date of hire seniority list integration fair and equitable in the past, there would be no grounds for a challenge under M.B. This is because the CBA effectively mirrors M.B.

If this merger happens you will be merged by date of hire regardless of if you decertify or not, unless of course the company decides to play games with you. If that happens, decertifying would be problematic for you, because you would have no representative to defend you.



But don't take my word for it, you really should call one of your CA MEC guys and ask them about this.

 

[outerfix]

Praetorian, you flat out wrong. An Arbitrator would decide what is fair and equitable in the event that CS decertifies. It's spelled out in black and white in the McCaskill-Bond statue. The Teamsters would argue for DOH but there is no way an arbitrator is going to place over 80 percent of the CS pilots on the bottom 20 percent of the seniority list, period.


Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers' employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either part for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

Allegheny-Mohawk, 59 C.A.B. at 45.

Section 13 mandated arbitration of disputes with employees that arose in this process or under any of the other provisions of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs.2 Section 13 provides:

In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees.

 

[JokerFuel]

Insert...horse before the cart here. This is a wait and see game. Cooler heads will prevail. Three common analogies in that one!

 

[Praetorian]

Praetorian, you flat out wrong. An Arbitrator would decide what is fair and equitable in the event that CS decertifies. It's spelled out in black and white in the McCaskill-Bond statue. The Teamsters would argue for DOH but there is no way an arbitrator is going to place over 80 percent of the CS pilots on the bottom 20 percent of the seniority list, period.


Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers' employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either part for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

Allegheny-Mohawk, 59 C.A.B. at 45.

Section 13 mandated arbitration of disputes with employees that arose in this process or under any of the other provisions of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs.2 Section 13 provides:

In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees.

Again, I hope you will reach out to your MEC guys. After all they would be personally effected by all of this and I suspect they have spoken to attorneys.

Right now you are misinterpreting what the statute says and misunderstanding how it would be applied. And no, I'm not helping you with it anymore on here.