Hobby Crash?

[h25b]

I fly all over the busy east coast and still can count on one hand the very few instances where I have been asked to clear quickly. As a rule, it is very rare when I witness the "poor planning" that is being referred to. When these come up, yes, I'll do my best to be a team player as I have plenty of cash in the budget for new brakes when the time comes. My boss refers to the airplane as my airplane, not his... It is under my command as he hired me as the professional in charge of doing things the right way, period. After all, he's not a typed ATP and as such realizes he has no expertise to offer in regards to how the brakes are used. Conversely, I don't tell him how to run the business either. He has his job, I have mine. It's a mutual trust and if he starts telling me that the bill to overhaul the brakes is too high I start looking for another job.

For crying out loud, I can overhaul our brakes for a VERY small percentage of the total value of the airplane.... It's the cost of doing business. Of course though, I'm one of the few remaining pilots in the world that actually crosses the runway threshold at Vref to Vref + 4 (not Vref+10-20) and touchdown within a reasonable distance from the start of the pavement. This could explain why I rarely experience a problem. But I guess that's a discussion for another time...

 

[rnobson]

Not sure if this is an issue here but In the UK there is a definate pressure by "faceless airport bosses "to push for increasing landings per hour cos of the increased revenue in landing fees. I'd hope that's not the case here An extra few seconds spacing could solve a few of these issues perhaps ???

 

[LJDRVR]

"Quit sucking the crack pipe and put it down."!?!?!

That's constructive.


So the jist of your thesis is this: (I'm paraphrasing you.)

• Screw the controllers and the other jets, my authority as PIC and the cost of my brakes takes precedence over all other operational concerns. Ask me to make the first turnoff? I'm ignoring you because the only jet in the national airspace system I care about is me. I go rolling by the first high-speed turnoff (After being asked to make it) causing a go-around, but that's the controllers fault!

• Anybody who questions my ideas are suggesting unsafe operating practices, most probably they are an accident waiting to happen.

Ask an ORD or LAX controller who's runway it is. TELL them that once cleared to land that you in your non-emergency aircraft will roll to the end because as a professional you don't have time to listen to them.

Amateur.

 

[TXGold]

Looks like we have another old fashioned Pissing Match.

Anymore details on the accident?

Heard the airport closing while talking with approach on our way out of Bush. God bless all involved.

TXGold

 

[Rick1128]

Knew both people involved. The impression I had of the Doctor in my dealing with him was that he had a good attitude about flying. Not the typical doctor/pilot attitude. The mechanic I will not say anything about publicly.

As for some of the opinions expressed in this thread. We seem to be our own worst enemies. Personally I will work with controllers within the limits of my aircraft, experience, passenger comfort, weather, etc. Over the pass two Decades there has been a small increase in the number of available runways, while traffic has increased dramaticly. Therefore we all need to do what we can to use the available facilities as effecently as possible. One of my favority examples is the airline that declares themselves ready for immediate takeoff and then sits on the end of the runway for over a minute before starting to roll.

Controllers do mess up, just like we all do. If you can not do it. tell them right out that you can not.

Now in working with ATC, I do not mean tearing up the aircraft. With a little planning much can be done. At your regular airports you should have some idea what the controllers normally want you to do and you can plan accordingly. Proper speed control ( some seem to think that ref +10 needs to be held all the way to the runway), proper use of T/R's, proper use of spoilers, etc go a long way to shortening the rollout.

As for keeping costs down, I have to agree that if the boss is upset about maintenance costs then it might be time to start looking for a new job. But then have you been doing your job? After all if you work for a company, you need to grind the company's axe. Have you properly explained about the effects of going into short gravel airports on tires and brakes? Are you heavy on the brakes? It is surprising how much change there is in brake life when you wait until the aircraft slows to 100 kts and you slowly apply brakes.

The only corporate operations I have seen shut down over maintenance costs are the ones that were way over the heads to begin with. Most of them were shut down over misc. costs. Things like catering, the pilots staying at 5 star hotels at full price and not shopping around a little. There is almost no difference between a 5 star and a 4 star. And if you look carefully you can stay a 5 star for the same or less than a 3 star.

 

[hotwing]

r u for real?

Look, I'll be the 1st guy to help a controller out. That is not what I am saying. The point I am trying to get across is don't put me in a position to have to tell you no because you are assigining taxi ways right after touch down that you THINK I can/should make. If I can make it without standing on the brakes or a abrupt turn, the guess what? You'll get your turn, but anything outside that is unacceptable. Nobady has blamed the controller for this accident. Ask yourself this, "What's the hurry?" It's just that simple. Pilots think they are helping the boss by doing everything at lightning speed and the boss will get angry if you ar enot starting #2 as he walks towards the airplane, and 9Xs out of 10, that is just not the case. If it is, you should find another job, as you're probably doing things that youa renot comfortable with afraid that you might get fired. To me, one is just not worth the other. My family is not going to read about me because I did something stupid trying to do everything super fast. Once again, "What's the hurry?"

Give me a break dude... Get a life... What a joke --- SWA does fine doing things fast... They make money doing it that way.

Have you ever flown into LAX, ORD, JFK or any other crazy place? Obviously, you have not flown 121...

 

[HawkerF/O]

Obviously, you have not flown 121...

Considering that this is a corporate board, you are correct, I have never flown 121. Gonna stop laughing now.......

 

[filejw]

All pilots flying jet A/C should be required to fly to the same standards.

 

[400A]

All pilots flying jet A/C should be required to fly to the same standards.

OK, but with that in mind, just as many 121 guys are gonna have to stop flying. Bigger airplanes dont make better pilots. There are good and bad pilots on both sides of the fence.

 

[sydeseet]

Considering that this is a corporate board, you are correct, I have never flown 121. Gonna stop laughing now.......

I've flown 121. Do I need to leave the board? Darn, it's my favorite one.

Signed,

121, 135, & 91 flyer.

 

[fokkerjet]

Gang. Isn't this all about using some common sense here? If I want to use the whole runway, like when I land at our home airport and I know I can save some time by landing (or should I say rolling out) long, I ask ATC somewhere on final. Looking at the TCAS display, you can get a pretty good idea if someone is screaming up your tailpipe, and if so, minimum time on the runway is in order, otherwise just clear the runway at the first "comfortable" taxiway. Saving brakes are great, but most brakes are carbon now, so wear isn't an issue of how hard you push, but how many times as you push them.

 

[eljefe]

Once again, "What's the hurry?"

You might ask yourself that question when you're the one going around, and explaining it to your boss, because the guy on runway 19 at TEB rolled to the end to avoid a little extra braking.

Or if you're the one who's #30 in line for take-off and the launch rate is agonzingly slow because everyone in front of you is taking their good ol' time.

If you're landing at Podunk at 2300...roll to the end if you like. But it's only common sense to use the runway for as short a time as is reasonably practical at a busy time at a busy airport to increase the capacity of the airport.

It's in all of our best interests to do so. And if a controller says "position and hold, be prepared for no delay, traffic on 3 mile final, I'd prefer that to waiting indefinitely for him to make a hole in arrivals so I can take my good ol' time.

We ought to wait for the investigation of the accident in HOU to be completed before we jump to any conclusions. Maybe that "expedite takeoff" or whatever it was, had nothing to do with it. But I, for one, shiver when I hear anybody suggest anything that will increase delays at our already over crowded airports.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Another point that F/O and others should consider is safety. Is rolling to the end safe? If you push the brakes a little harder and stop earlier on the runway, you will be in a much better position if there is a problem. Studies have shown that one of the biggest dangers to a jet airplane is high speed while on the ground (runway). If Hawker F/O is really looking to be conservative and safe, he should stand on those brakes a little harder and get his plane slowed to a safer speed sooner. Also, is it safe to sit on an active runway? When I call in #1 for takeoff, I'm ready to go. I don't want to waste any time sitting with my blind side to landing traffic.

Yes, son, slower is not always safer. If you can't move quickly when you need to, you might want to consider a different business.

Ace

 

[HawkerF/O]

1st, please don't call me son; you are insulting my mother. I ask you to go back and find one post where I suggest that I roll to the end when I land. Show me where I posted that. Come on, where did I write that I roll to the end when I land? It is very rare for me to do that. That is the problem with the board, people read posts, then selectively choose what they want to respnd to instead of absorbing the entire post. What I said is that I am not going to check up to exit a runway. I land the same way each time:
REF +10 a mile out
Over the fence at REF
Mains touch: Reversers to Idle Deploy and Extension of Ground Spoilers
Nose wheel touchdown: Reversers to Full Reverse (I do this so the power is there if I need it)
As the Engines start to Spool: Reduction of Reverse Thrust to a setting appropriate for the given conditions and tap the brakes ever so slightly to make sure they are available
60 Knots: Reversers to Idle Deploy and 1st use of brakes
At this point and only at this point am I now going to be receptive to exiting instructions. I think the afore mentioned technique is not only efficient, but a good use of the equipment. I let the reversers do the work and the work well, but at no time am I suggesting rolling to the end just to do it. If the technique I use cause me to have to roll to the end, then I have to roll to the end. But some controller wanting me to exit at a place convienent for him is not something I am willing to do unless it can be accomplish within the boundaries of what I have just described. I'll help him anyway I can, but making a hasty exit just to do it is silly. Someone else mentioned what if I was the one that was having to go around. Ok, so I had to go around. So what? I can assure you that he'd much rather me do that than take a chance with his safety and that of his family. You guys think you are doing the boss a favor by being cowboys, when in reality, if he know what was going on up there, you'd be looking for work. If your boss is getting pissed off because you have to go around, then you are the one that should be looking for other work. Finally, as for standing on the brakes sooner (at a higher speed) is the worst thing you can do. I am going to assume that you know the faster you are going when you press the brakes, the more heat you are going to produce. So go on, use those brakes right after the mains hit as you are suggesting, and see what happens when you really need them. You might just FADE away right off the end.

Another point that F/O and others should consider is safety. Is rolling to the end safe? If you push the brakes a little harder and stop earlier on the runway, you will be in a much better position if there is a problem. Studies have shown that one of the biggest dangers to a jet airplane is high speed while on the ground (runway). If Hawker F/O is really looking to be conservative and safe, he should stand on those brakes a little harder and get his plane slowed to a safer speed sooner. Also, is it safe to sit on an active runway? When I call in #1 for takeoff, I'm ready to go. I don't want to waste any time sitting with my blind side to landing traffic.

Yes, son, slower is not always safer. If you can't move quickly when you need to, you might want to consider a different business.

Ace

 

[aeronautic1]

Just stopped by to see if there was any information on the Hobby crash. I was sad to see this thread denigrate into so much feldercarb. You guys really need to put down the keyboard and get outside for some sunshine and fresh aire.

 

[h25b]

...denigrate into so much feldercarb.

I have no idea what that means, but it sure sounds bad... I even tried looking it up.

The corporate board hasn't had this much spirited debate for quite a while. It was only a matter of time.

 

[erj-145mech]

I have no idea what that means, but it sure sounds bad... I even tried looking it up.

I think that its from the original TV series "Battlestar Galactica". Sort of a futuristic "OH Fudge".

 

[h25b]

I think that its from the original TV series "Battlestar Galactica". Sort of a futuristic "OH Fudge".

Battlestar Galactica ??? It sounds more like something Ward Cleaver would say...

 

[bigD]

We were due for some debate. We haven't had much action around here since the WSCoD thread!

 

[501261]

60 Knots: Reversers to Idle Deploy and 1st use of brakes
At this point and only at this point am I now going to be receptive to exiting instructions.

Sounds like you're way behind the power curve to me, that and the "chest thumping" of the "runway is mine".

You need to have your "exiting" planned BEFORE descent. What really screws ATC up is when you slow down just enough to miss the closest taxiway, then have to "taxi" to the next exit, and is a perfect example of bad planning.

It's real simple for the Hawker just look on the Jepp 10-9 page and see which runway exits are between 4000-6000' down the runway, figure out where the FBO is and soon enough you'll have a plan "A", "B" or "C" for exiting the runway, and when ATC asks if you can do plan "B" you're already thinking that way too. A little bit of situational awareness goes a long way!