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Hobby Crash?

100-1/2

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Anything yet?

FNC says Cessna. Looks like jet fueled fire and scour marks on a southerly heading west of 12R and intersecting rwy. Short impact travel indicates slow speed or high angle of descent. Doesn't appear to align with any runway and unless pax survived impact, all seemed to have perrished.
 

2000flyer

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100-1/2 said:
Anything yet?

FNC says Cessna. Looks like jet fueled fire and scour marks on a southerly heading west of 12R and intersecting rwy. Short impact travel indicates slow speed or high angle of descent. Doesn't appear to align with any runway and unless pax survived impact, all seemed to have perrished.

NBAA reported it's a Citation III. No other details. Two onboard, both fatal.
 

2000flyer

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Update

Houston Chronicle reporting a Citation 500...


By PAIGE HEWITT
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

Two people died this morning around 10 a.m. when their twin engine plane, a Cessna Citation 500, crashed at Hobby Airport, officials said.

The plane had been waiting on the runway to take off from runway 22 at Hobby to Corpus Christi when an incoming Southwest 737 jet issued an alert because of engine trouble, according to Tommy Dowdy, district chief for the Houston Fire Department.

*****Air traffic controllers told the Cessna to take off quickly. Moments after take-off, however, the pilot of the business jet radioed the tower for permission to land immediately. The plane, however, plunged nose first, tumbled over and skidded nearly 300 feet on the runway, Dowdy said.

The Southwest flight was diverted to Bush Intercontinental Airport, where it landed safely.



Hobby resumed flights at 11 a.m.
 

HawkerF/O

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NBAA Statement Concerning Cessna Crash at HOU TodayNovember 5, 2005

NBAA is monitoring developments related to the crash of a Cessna Citation III at Houston Hobby Airport this morning. According to local news reports, the accident happened shortly before 10AM local time; Houston Fire Department officials report that bothpeople aboard are dead. The aircraft does not belong to an NBAA MemberCompany.News reports state that the accident occurred after the Citation landedand is contained on the airport. The airport was closed for about anhour following the crash. NBAA will continue to follow developments concerning this accident.Members with questions about today's events are invited to contactNBAA's offices at 202.783.9000.
 

HawkerF/O

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2000flyer said:
*****Air traffic controllers told the Cessna to take off quickly. Moments after take-off, however, the pilot of the business jet radioed the tower for permission to land immediately. The plane, however, plunged nose first, tumbled over and skidded nearly 300 feet on the runway, Dowdy said.
That is exactly the reason I don't do things like that. Who knows what caused this crash, but you can ALWAYS deline a controller's instructions with "unable". The worst is when you are on the landing rollout and the tower is barking runway exit instructions. Look Buddy, I am working. As a professional, I am not going to listen to your instructions when I am at 100KIAS trying to slow down and stop and I have the runway. Just not gonna do it. I am concentrating on getting the 10M jet stopped safely on a runway I have YOUR permission to be using. If you weren't ready for me you should not have cleared me to land. Furthermore, I am not going to wear out my boss' brakes trying to accomadate you lack of planning. I'll exit at my discretion and if you don't like it, you are welcome to call me and we'll discuss it.
 

LJDRVR

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Citation II. Maintainance test flight. Owner/Physician PIC, with the mechanic along to observe.

Rest in Peace.

LJDRVR
 

Gulfstream 200

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LJDRVR said:
Citation II. Maintainance test flight. Owner/Physician PIC, with the mechanic along to observe.

Rest in Peace.

LJDRVR


lovely.
 

LJDRVR

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HawkerF/O said:
If you weren't ready for me you should not have cleared me to land. Furthermore, I am not going to wear out my boss' brakes trying to accomadate you lack of planning. I'll exit at my discretion and if you don't like it, you are welcome to call me and we'll discuss it.

I don't know you sir, so I'll phrase my response carefully to avoid you focusing on the tone of my message in lieu of the issue.

You seem to be asserting your PIC authority with a healthy dose of chest-thumping, all the while ignoring the physics and reality of what's really occuring. As a rule, controllers will not "bother" you during the initial part of your touchdown and rollout without a really good safety of flight reason to do so.

"Hawker 01B, plan minimum time on the runway, landing traffic behind you."

After hearing this you are going to ignore the controller? (It's not your runway as long as you need it.)

You would rather have the jet behind you execute a go-around, flying directly over you in the proccess, than get on your brakes (Your boss isn't PIC) and make the next high speed? (With the traffic safely behind you.)

So the guy behind you has to perform a low-altitude go-round, mangling their peep's connections and screwing up the crew's schedule all because your wealthy boss's budget doesn't include an extra penny for brake usage above and beyond a liesurely roll to the end and/or because you lack the will or facilities to multi-task during your landing rollout?

Doesn't sound remotely professional to me. I'm not being sarcastic when I ask you: are you really serious about this? I certainly hope not.
 

Ace-of-the-Base

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LJDRVR said:
I don't know you sir, so I'll phrase my response carefully to avoid you focusing on the tone of my message in lieu of the issue.

You seem to be asserting your PIC authority with a healthy dose of chest-thumping, all the while ignoring the physics and reality of what's really occuring. As a rule, controllers will not "bother" you during the initial part of your touchdown and rollout without a really good safety of flight reason to do so.

"Hawker 01B, plan minimum time on the runway, landing traffic behind you."

After hearing this you are going to ignore the controller? (It's not your runway as long as you need it.)

You would rather have the jet behind you execute a go-around, flying directly over you in the proccess, than get on your brakes (Your boss isn't PIC) and make the next high speed? (With the traffic safely behind you.)

So the guy behind you has to perform a low-altitude go-round, mangling their peep's connections and screwing up the crew's schedule all because your wealthy boss's budget doesn't include an extra penny for brake usage above and beyond a liesurely roll to the end and/or because you lack the will or facilities to multi-task during your landing rollout?

Doesn't sound remotely professional to me. I'm not being sarcastic when I ask you: are you really serious about this? I certainly hope not.

I agree. Controllers have a tough job. They really do their best and try to accommodate thousands of different airplanes being flown by pilots who all have their own technique. If they never wanted to have to ask (yes, ask) a pilot to help them out by expediting a takeoff or landing roll, they could just add 5 minutes to each departure / arrival. Imagine what kind of response THAT would get.

I don't know why anyone who has the skills and the equipment would not want to stand on the brakes a little harder to make things flow a little better. Can you spell 'self righteous'? I am confident that something other than an expedited takeoff happened to the poor soles in that Citation. Let's not blame the controller. We don't know the facts.

Ace
 

Oakum_Boy

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LJDRVR said:
You would rather have the jet behind you execute a go-around, flying directly over you in the proccess, than get on your brakes (Your boss isn't PIC) and make the next high speed? (With the traffic safely behind you.)

So the guy behind you has to perform a low-altitude go-round, mangling their peep's connections and screwing up the crew's schedule all because your wealthy boss's budget doesn't include an extra penny for brake usage above and beyond a liesurely roll to the end and/or because you lack the will or facilities to multi-task during your landing rollout?

Doesn't sound remotely professional to me. I'm not being sarcastic when I ask you: are you really serious about this? I certainly hope not.

I don't think the argument bodes well as 'corporate vs. airlines'. In the real world, at busy airports, with the congestion levels as they are, it is only a matter of time before those factors catch up with an airplane or two.

Crew schedules? Passenger connections? Who cares. If I go-around and time-out as a result, so what. Do what you're comfortable with, and if the controllers aren't happy with it, then too bad. No sense in rushing a takeoff because the tower is freaking out over a situation that THEY put everyone in. Right?
 

HawkerF/O

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LRDRVR, ironically you call yourself a "Safety Consultant" and suggest my use of as much runway as I deem fit is foolish? Are you kidding me?Poor planning on someone else's part does not constitute an EMERGENCY on my part. There was a controller that wanted a pilot to make a Xing restriction that would have meant a 5K/ft min decent. The pilot told them he was unable. The controller said, "Don't you have speed Brakes?" The pilot's response, "Those are for my mistakes, not yours!" BAM! And he was right to say that, if are suppose to be a professional, and you can't plan better than that? Tough, don't look to me to inconvienence my passengers with a sh#tty ride because of planning that was not done as it should have been. He wasn't going to do it, and neither will I.
LJDRVR said:
I don't know you sir, so I'll phrase my response carefully to avoid you focusing on the tone of my message in lieu of the issue.

You seem to be asserting your PIC authority with a healthy dose of chest-thumping, all the while ignoring the physics and reality of what's really occuring. As a rule, controllers will not "bother" you during the initial part of your touchdown and rollout without a really good safety of flight reason to do so.

"Hawker 01B, plan minimum time on the runway, landing traffic behind you."

After hearing this you are going to ignore the controller? (It's not your runway as long as you need it.)
In fact it is my runway. As long as I am on it with permission to be there, you better believe it is mine to use at my discretion in a normal operating environment.

LJDRVR said:
You would rather have the jet behind you execute a go-around, flying directly over you in the proccess, than get on your brakes (Your boss isn't PIC) and make the next high speed? (With the traffic safely behind you.)
No, my boss is not the PIC, you are right. But I am paid to keep his best interest in mind, fly safely, and perform in a maner reflecting the professionalism of the orgizanation. If the plane behind me has to go around, then tough sh#t. The controller should not have spaced us so closely together. Look, I dont hog the runway rolling out to the end each time I land, but it will be a smooth deceleration and normal exit from the runway. No sharp turns or abrupt braking just to satisfy a controller that is trying to squeeze in as much traffice as possible. I'm sorry you do those type of things, but in my opinion, and that's all it is, my opinion, slamming on the brakes to try to make a turn cause there is someone on your 6 is not my problem and my employer is not going to suffer a financial penalty (faster wear on the brakes due to excessive braking) just becasue of poor planning.
Aircraft are designed to perform in the air, not on the ground. It's not a sports car.
LJDRVR said:
So the guy behind you has to perform a low-altitude go-round, mangling their peep's connections and screwing up the crew's schedule all because your wealthy boss's budget doesn't include an extra penny for brake usage above and beyond a liesurely roll to the end and/or because you lack the will or facilities to multi-task during your landing rollout?
Is there such a thing as a high altitude go around? Once again, my concern and obligations are to the people aboard the aircraft which I am piloting. I don't give a dam# about the airplane behind me. If I am concerned about someone else behind me, then I am taking attention away from my aircraft, and I am simply not willing to do that. It is a shame you are. You also mentioned an additional penny for brakes. That lets me know how involved you are in your operation. A pair of carbon fiber brakes costs 100K. No 2 ways about it. 100K. Those are not pennies, at least not where I come from. You can't go to Auto-zone and buy a pair of $75 brakes. It's not a car. It's not some lesiurely rollout. When we are safely slowed, we then start making plans for an exit, but not a second before that. A controller has no idea what I am doing insdie my cockpit, what I am having to deal with, or what it is that I am capable of. With that in mind, if you think of a second that all controllers wait until you are at a crawl before they tell you to exit, you need to put the crack pipe down. Hawkerf/o instructs the Lear Driver: Quit sucking the crack pipe and put it down. I landed in TEB this morning, and even with all the construction, they still are barking exit instructions when I have not even slowed through 90Knots. Is that making sure there is a really safe blah blah blah or whatever it was you said? As a rule of thumb, when I stow the reversers, then I am open to the controllers request for exiting. Anything said by him before that will be met with silence or "unable", as he is talking to himself; You see, I am too busy providing a safe end of the flight for my PAX, keeping their safety and that of mine in check. You should try employing some of the same tatics.
LJDRVR said:
Doesn't sound remotely professional to me. I'm not being sarcastic when I ask you: are you really serious about this? I certainly hope not.
Infact I am serious and when you shear a tire off the bead and slide it in the grass trying to comply with a controllers instructions, you'll be wishing you had done it differently as you are getting shown the unemployment line!
 
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Gulfstream 200

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Seriously, use "your bosses brakes" and get the hell off the runway.

Is this the same boss who would never pay more than 60K a yr for a Hawker 800XP PIC?....

nevermind, maybe he needs the money - you go ahead and use the entire 9000 ft and roll out. Its all your runway, Captain.

You sound the like the President of the Abused Charter Pilots of America.

Nobody is asking you to skid sideways into the grass Ace, just get off the damn runway as quick as you safely can, I might be the guy behind you at the tail end of a 13 hr leg and would like to not go around because you're an idiot.


that "save the bosses brakes" line is real lame.






:smash:
 
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flyin4pennies

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I have to agree with hawkerFO to a small extent. When I was based in BOS there was a controller who would ALWAYS ask if we could clear at a certain taxiway. This would always happen while the PNF would be making his "Spoilers Deployed" call. This should give you some indication of how early after touchdown he would be askin questions about exit. Now I think I have only seen this once or twice other than at BOS so this was mostly isolated to one controller.
 

HawkerF/O

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Ace-of-the-Base said:
I agree. Controllers have a tough job. They really do their best and try to accommodate thousands of different airplanes being flown by pilots who all have their own technique. If they never wanted to have to ask (yes, ask) a pilot to help them out by expediting a takeoff or landing roll, they could just add 5 minutes to each departure / arrival. Imagine what kind of response THAT would get.

I don't know why anyone who has the skills and the equipment would not want to stand on the brakes a little harder to make things flow a little better. Can you spell 'self righteous'? I am confident that something other than an expedited takeoff happened to the poor soles in that Citation. Let's not blame the controller. We don't know the facts.

Ace
Look, I'll be the 1st guy to help a controller out. That is not what I am saying. The point I am trying to get across is don't put me in a position to have to tell you no because you are assigining taxi ways right after touch down that you THINK I can/should make. If I can make it without standing on the brakes or a abrupt turn, the guess what? You'll get your turn, but anything outside that is unacceptable. Nobady has blamed the controller for this accident. Ask yourself this, "What's the hurry?" It's just that simple. Pilots think they are helping the boss by doing everything at lightning speed and the boss will get angry if you ar enot starting #2 as he walks towards the airplane, and 9Xs out of 10, that is just not the case. If it is, you should find another job, as you're probably doing things that youa renot comfortable with afraid that you might get fired. To me, one is just not worth the other. My family is not going to read about me because I did something stupid trying to do everything super fast. Once again, "What's the hurry?"
 

flyin4pennies

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Let me clarify something! HawkerF.O. has a point when it only comes to the controller asking for something that requires a reply in the middle of a landing and early rollout. With regaurd to the BOS controller, we missed his question once and he got snotty with us.
 

filejw

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Dear Mr Hawker F/O,
I guess I should stay just a little above the glide slope just for guys like you .Maybe a static run up when your on a 3 mile final.This aviation has long depended on a helpfull attitude from all users.You sound a bit stressed perhaps you should find other work.
 

HawkerF/O

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Gulfstream 200 said:
Seriously, use "your bosses brakes" and get the hell off the runway.

Is this the same boss who would never pay more than 60K a yr for a Hawker 800XP PIC?....

nevermind, maybe he needs the money - you go ahead and use the entire 9000 ft and roll out. Its all your runway, Captain.

You sound the like the President of the Abused Charter Pilots of America.

Nobody is asking you to skid sideways into the grass Ace, just get off the dang runway as quick as you safely can, I might be the guy behind you at the tail end of a 13 hr leg and would like to not go around because you're an idiot.


that "save the bosses brakes" line is real lame.






:smash:
Look Galaxy driver, I don't fly Hawkers anymore and I don't make 60K. You are referring to another post of how much a newly upgraded pilot flying 135 and 91 should make flying an H25B, and I said 60K at a min. as long as you ar enot on either coast, and now all the sudden that is my salary and my boss would NEVER pay more than that? You should go back and read what I wrote before you spout off your mouth with inaccuries.

Gulfstream 200 said:
just get off the dang runway as quick as you safely can
Is that not what I have been saying this entire post????????
 

flyin4pennies

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Play nice filejw!!
 

Gulfstream 200

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HawkerF/O said:
Look Galaxy driver, I don't fly Hawkers anymore and I don't make 60K. You are referring to another post of how much a newly upgraded pilot flying 135 and 91 should make flying an H25B, and I said 60K at a min. as long as you ar enot on either coast, and now all the sudden that is my salary and my boss would NEVER pay more than that? You should go back and read what I wrote before you spout off your mouth with inaccuries.

Is that not what I have been saying this entire post????????


yeah, keep "saving the bosses brakes" so you keep you job another day...sheesh...

You sound like a very nervous ametuer.

Most of us are beyond the "ATC wont make me do anything dangerous" phase - thats just a given - its not a noble chest-thumping Me Captain demand.

Its really common sense, get off the runway as quick as you safely can -- to include USING THE BOSSES BRAKES....even if you have to push on them with a wee bit of girly force.
 
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