hiring a resident vs.citizen

[huncowboy]

If you can get the legal right to work in Australia then you can apply to Qantas or whoever you want.

same for GB, or same for Canada, or same for Germany... I would even go as far as to say that to get the legal right to work in Canada, or GB, or Australia is much easier than it is for the USA. Germany may be though... except for EU citizens.

The challenge to get a job at British or Qantas is not the right to work, even citizens can't get it. It is not like any green card holder takes away a job right now at AA, or Delta, or United, or you know who... there is no double standards.

I bet that a US pilot (with the numbers AviatorTX has) would have a higher chance to get "a" (not THE) flying job in Europe, including the hassle to get the citizenship of any one of the member countries, than a pilot from the EU, especially from a non-English speaking country.

The problem is not that Europe or other places discriminate against US immigrants (believe or not there are such), the problem is that the economy is out on a dump mission all over the world and we all are pissed and aggravated... actually I am not aggravated just yet with my 200ishTT.. I will be after instructing for ages LOL.

 

[AA985]

Nice try...

I'll take a U.S. citizen with a G.E.D. over a green card holding PHD any day of the week.

US Citizenship should be a qualification in it's self. Again, it should be a two way street. If I can't just go get an AIRLINE job in Britain or Australia, you guys and gals should be S.O.L. over here. Fair is fair.

IF it WAS a two way street, I would have a different outlook.

FYI Singapoure Airlines, Cathay Pacific and other carriers abroad take americans and other WITHOUT you even having a work permit in their countries. They take care of that. STOP WHINNING. If you have the qualifications no one will take "your" jobs.....

 

[limodriver1]

Finally some good talk here!

Very good , seems like this issue got finally some great inputs!

Yes , most of the pilots in USA has gone long way to get their rights to work here, you think I should turn burgers for 3 years minimums what it takes to apply citizenship after receiving your greencard via marriage , I tell you **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** you!

Lets concentrade like one of you said non-qualified people to get pilot jobs!

Like interns, ex-military, yeah yeah, I mean it!

I dont think guy who has flown lets say single-pilot fighter jets total time around 2500 , pass guys in interview process because they are military and others not...

Can any one argue about that!

Ex-military guys are better fit to SW, or JB with their low times than furloughed AA, United or USAir pilot with lots of time and experience in their hand.

Or intern flying regional jets with 500-1000 hours I think that is scary!!!

And yes there is very good and qualified ex-military pilots for these jobs but not all of them, I had difficulties my self. But then again I served in other country maybe that is the reason!

One more things to understand french guys or some asian carriers pilot can be rather challenging!

 

[crashpad]

Don't forget the Dutch! Man, you can't flame for 2 pages and not say anything about the Dutch! Oh, the women foreigners? Now we're talking unfair. I know this one.....

 

[xdashdriver]

Several of you have displayed your complete ignorance in regards to foreign and domestic immigration policies and practices on this thread. I am quite embarrassed for you for forming such a strong opinion on something when you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, especially when it comes to your own country's requirements.

I'm not entirely sure where anyone gets the idea that the U.S. is "easy" to gain legal entry to. Illegal entry is easy....but illegal immigrants are not getting airline pilot jobs, therefore the people who came here on "easy street" are not airline pilots. The documentation and background checking required to become an airline pilot would exclude all but the most sophisticated and crafty illegal immigrants in the U.S. Hence, the VAST majority of non-citizen airline pilots are here legally.

There are two classes of people entering the United States at its borders. The first is non-immigrants i.e. those who are only here temporarily on a visit and students (there are some other non-immigrant categories, but they're irrelevant). On the whole, those people are NOT legally entitled to work in the U.S. Therefore legal non-immigrants are not taking away jobs from U.S. Citizens. Incidentally, the U.S. government considers all persons trying to enter the U.S. as trying to do so permanently unless they prove otherwise. As a result, with the exception of the majority of EU countries and some others, people have to apply for a visa to enter the US, even just for a visit. Such visa application can take several months and requires that the applicant prove that they are not seeking to move to the U.S. on a permanent basis. Documentary evidence and an interview are commonly required Sound real easy....just for a visit?

The second class of person entering the U.S. are immigrants. These people are entering the U.S. with the intent to stay here permanently. In order for them to even enter the U.S. they have to have an approved immigrant visa. Immigrant visas fall into 2 categories. The first is family-based. The second is work-based. With the exception of spouses and dependents, all categories of family-based visa applications are restricted by Congress to a certain number per year. As a result, there are thousands of people waiting in their home country to immigrate to the U.S. and they have been waiting (in some cases) in excess of 10 YEARS. Spouse and dependent categories do not have a limit, therefore are available immediately for approval to ENTER the U.S. as immigrants (process is only just beginning). In order for them to even be eligible to apply, they must have an immediate family member who is a U.S. Citizen or Permanent Resident. And yes, a higher priority is given to those who have U.S. Citizen family members. Doesn't really seem like the "oh, let's book a flight to the US tomorrow and go live there" now does it?

I'll continue my ground lesson on immigration in the next message...

 

[xdashdriver]

Work-based applicants have to receive certification from the Department of Labor to have their visas approved. Companies wishing to go outside the current U.S. workforce to find workers have to go through a very long and arduous process to find US workers, have their efforts audited and certified by the DOL before they can even think about hiring a non-US worker. Thus the Department of Labor is working EVERY day to ensure that every US worker that wants a job gets one before anyone outside the US gets one. This is necessary to protect US workers. After certification by the DOL, the visa can now be approved and the person can ENTER the US. (Again, process is not over) Not really a case of just applying for a job in the US, going for an interview and bingo, you're in....huh?

The Dept. of Labor is not about to certify foreign airline pilots who want airline jobs here in the U.S. No company would be able to do that, not with the current glut of pilots and numbers of applications on file at most carriers.

Once a person enters the US, he must then file an adjustment of status application with the agency formerly known as the INS. During the interim period, he is allowed to work, but he is not yet a permanent resident. His adjustment of status application will take several months to be approved. Once it is approved, he will then be a Permanent Resident. For the very fastest of categories, (spouse of a U.S. citizen) it takes a minimum of 6-12 months from the beginning to the end of the process. And this person has a US citizen mom, dad, child or spouse. With the exception of spouse....it's hard to acquire a US Citizen mom, dad or child on a whim.

So this leaves us with the spouse situation. The INS knows all about internet brides and marriages of convenience and they try to plug the holes and ensure marriage in good faith as much as one can resonably expect them to, and in general, they try a lot harder than most other countries do. Abuses still happen, of course. US Citizens abuse their own systems everyday, nothing is new. But for those who have married legitimately and have taken advantage of the ONLY fast track to residency, don't broad-stroke everyone with the same brush. Flame the abusers like the illegal immigrants and marriages of convenience.

The vast majority of legal immigrants in the U.S. did not get here easily. It took a lot of work and a lot of time to get here. Much like it takes an aspiring pilot to get from student to airline pilot. Those that had an easier time of it have a legitimate right to be here. They married US citizens in good faith. To restrict the rights of a US Citizen's spouse to work and live in the US would necessarily restrict the U.S. Citizen's freedoms...which would be abhorrent to you and quite rightly so. To penalize a US Citizen for marrying a non-citizen would necessarily be restricting their freedom.

Now we need to enlighten ourselves as to employment law in the US in regards to legal US workers. The US government strictly prohibits discrimination on the basis of national origin, citizenship status and a whole host of other categories. If a person has the legal right to work in the U.S. he has been granted that right by the US government, and therefore by the U.S. people (since it's a democracy). The US people have said that companies and individuals should not have the right to discriminate against legal workers. The US people have also said that in the case of two equally qualified people, a company can hire the US citizen in preference to the non-citizen. The US people have also said that most federal jobs should not be available to non-US citizens. So when it comes down to it, there is still preference given to US citizens among equally qualified people. And quite rightly so.

So, on the immigration front, it is NOT quite so easy to enter the US as some of you think. In fact it is very hard. Once here, preference can still be given to US citizens. However, WE the United States people, chose to give legal workers rights. We made it difficult for them to enter, but once they're here, they should be treated fairly. There is a system in place to protect U.S. Citizens, and quite rightly so. It's not the free-for-all you might think. There will always be abuses, but it is not the fault of legal immigrants. They abide by the laws or they're deported. They pay their taxes or they're deported. They contribute to the well-being of U.S. Citizens, and in most cases take jobs US Citizens don't want.

 

[xdashdriver]

We haven't even talked about the specific case of airline pilot yet. Regardless of level of license or certificate held, all the FAA will issue on the basis of a foreign pilot certificate is a Private. As a result, foreign-trained pilots have to acquire US certificates and licenses by passing the same tests we did. That requires a certain amount of training, and therefore money. So this in an additional hurdle to jump in order to fly here.

So by the time a foreign, legal immigrant walks into his airline interview....he's most likely spent several years and several thousand dollars to get from his home country to where he is today. He hasn't just waltzed in the door and "taken away" some U.S. citizen's job.

As has already been mentioned, there are foreign airlines out there that will hire a U.S. pilot with almost no hoops or hurdles at all. (I'm thinking of Singapore in particular) US carriers, by law, cannot do that. Others will lease US pilots to fly for them for a contracted period (JAL, for example). US carriers are prohibited, again by law, from doing the same.

The specific examples used have been BA and Quantas as examples of places that won't hire US pilots. First of all, the UK is vastly easier to get into than the US is, immigration-wise. Yes, there are hurdles and hoops to jump, but it's nowhere near the same as in the U.S. The only thing that would provide a significant hurdle for US pilots is the licensing issue. The UK (now JAA, so EU-wide) ground school curriculum is signficantly more in depth and involved than the US Comm/ATP equivalents. As a result, some time may need to be taken to get licensed by the JAA. Oh by the way, in case you hadn't noticed, you can do most of that in FL...so you don't even have to leave the country to get licensed in a foreign country.

Just like in the U.S., once you're approved to work in the UK and you're armed with your license, you'll be put in the same barrell as all the other applicants. British Airways has several US pilots working for them. Virgin has even more (and both carriers have to abide by the same rules).

In the UK you won't be fingerprinted and background checked every time you go for flight training. In the UK you won't be fingerprinted and photographed just to enter for a visit. Is the US wrong to require these things? Not necessarily. Just providing a little perspective on the relative "ease" of getting a flying job.

So if we're talking about reciprocity here, don't fool yourself. In some cases it's a lot easier to go "steal" a foreign pilot's job in his own country than it is for him to come "steal" yours.

America, remember what makes us great and where we come from. There's a reason people want to move here from all over the world, and that should make us proud, not afraid. As pilots, our jobs are among the most protected in the nation from "foreign invasion". Those foreign accents that you hear have probably been here a long time, maybe even longer than you. They've paid the price for their freedom, and sometimes a bigger price than you paid. Be quick to think and slow to judge. Take the time to learn before you open your mouths and show your ignorance.

As for me, I'm a dual US/UK citizen. I was born in Luxembourg in Europe of parents from Southern Africa, so I've dealt with an immigratrion issue or two. I naturalized here 3 weeks ago after 5 years of living legally in the US. I am dual JAA/FAA licensed so I know how hard it is to convert back and forth. When you fly your airplane, you won't hear a foreign accent when I speak on the radio. If you visit my home, you'll see Old Glory flying 25 ft in the air. In my wallet you'll see a Voter Registration Card and I intend to use it. I've always paid my taxes and I registered with selective service when I first got here. I didn't come here to steal your job. I defended your rights as Citizens and accepted the legal restrictions on my rights as a non-Citizen. I count it a privilege to have been afforded the opportunity to become an American and I will wear that label with pride.

Ray

 

[CatYaaak]

I count it a privilege to have been afforded the opportunity to become and American and I will wear that label with pride.

Ray

Outstanding, informative posts Ray, and congrats on your new citizenship among us rebellious "colonials".

 

[TriJet]

Residents vs. Citizens

Residents pay taxes too!!

I knew the red-necks would be out in full forces on this one!

and yes, I AM A CITIZEN

 

[xdashdriver]

Outstanding, informative posts Ray, and congrats on your new citizenship among us rebellious "colonials".

Thanks. Had I been around when the first boat arrived on the shores of the US, I'd have been on it!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Re: Ahh Naturalization

Take a sample here:

http://uscis.gov/graphics/exec/natz/natztest.asp

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, missed who takes over if the Pres and VP die.

So, with 4 out of 5, where do I turn in my citzenship? And where do I go now?

 

[Skaz]

raysalmon bravo, excellent post, very informatice and I dare say, have taken the wind out of the sails of the xenophobes.

I am a South African citizen, getting married to a US girl in October of this year. After the honeymoon and all the pleasures that accompany it, I shall be starting the long process of converting my license and looking for employment in the USA.

I am pretty sure there are some knee-jerk reactions to a post like this, but illegal immigrant I'm not. In fact, I would be proud to serve in the US military or Coast Guard, providing a life-saving service to the American people, apart from the usual like paying taxes and being a good citizen....um, resident

Having lived and worked in a number of Southern African countries and meeting lotsa 'foreign' pilots, including American ones, I think people like AviatorTX should wind his neck in and travel a bit. Go to the the places people come from that you accuse of taking jobs from you, and see how EASY it is for you to get a job there.

SennaP1, and anyone else going, gone or still having to go through the PROCESS, will know its not easy to get into the USA legally. I still have to go to the interview with the immigration guy wanting to see photos and emails and love letters etc.
If we abide by the laws and regulations set in place by the people of the USA through their government, pass the test and measure up, we should be given equal opportunity to become law abiding, economically active productive citizens who contribute to the wellfare of American society.

 

[freightrash]

applause%^##$%

Ray! It was great post!
Well I really wanted to explain samething to those ignorants.
But I was too lazy or didn't care about their problem.
At least I hope those HR people in airline industry have this
kind of knowledge.....
once again good job!

 

[Carlton]

A friend of mine who works for Qantas recently related a story about a former marine F18 pilot whom he converted from a 744SO to a 737fo at Qantas. I won't comment on what he said about this guys flying abilities as compared to the average RAAF F18 driver. He married an Australian girl.

Qantas is actively hiring and Australia is relatively easy to immigrate to ,if you have a degree, work experience in certain areas. Checkout www.immi.gov.au If you have a masters degree and
are under 28 you shouldn't have to many problems. But it means getting of your rear and acting. If your immigration appl is granted(takes around 8 months) you get permanent residency straight away -then you can apply to Qantas.

Qantas also has 80+ Americans working for their short haul division. Guys who joined Australian Airlines during the 1989 strike/dispute-Qantas later took over Aust Airlines.

It surprises me that more Americans don't look abroad to pursue their careers- it's not as though a lot is going on in your own country now. Many would be eligible for an EU passport through parents/grandparents.

If you think the USA is the best place to live
then you obviously haven't lived on the Queensland coast- but then that's another story

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Of course, you should be aware that when the ignorant folks speaking of green card pilots, they are not talking the white dudes from England, or South Africa. Something tells me that they are thinking about the Mexicans or something.

 

[xdashdriver]

Well I saw references to BA and Qantas as being examples of places that US pilot couldn't go. I didn't see anything about Aero Mexico. But I think I see what you're saying. They're taking the general illegal immigration problem (which is the most widely advertised form of immigration) and assuming it also applies to the pilot world. I attempted to cover that misconception in my posts too. They fail to realize that illegal immigration and the outsourcing of jobs overseas hurts them exponentially more than any legal immigration situation ever will.

 

[Freight Dog]

AviatorTX, you are a class 1 idiot.

Care to guess how many immigrants i.e. green card holders have served in the U.S. military? Care to guess how many of them are in right now putting their lives on the line for this country? Care to guess how many of them made the ultimate sacrifice so your hick ass can make fun of them? Care to guess how many of them bypassed you simply because they're better than you?

Oh, and I'd rather work with a green card holder over some ignorant bubba like yourself. You're just like you say... cocky, so I figure you talk the talk, and people like you never walk the walk - whereas your immigrant green card guy won't talk the talk, but he'll run the walk.

Grow up!

 

[CatYaaak]

Of course, you should be aware that when the ignorant folks speaking of green card pilots, they are not talking the white dudes from England, or South Africa. Something tells me that they are thinking about the Mexicans or something.

I don't agree with the anti-green card types, but it's just as, if not more ignorant, and certainly more childish, of you to try and assign racist notions to others just because they may be protectionists on labor issues, or not aware of immigration process.

NObody here has brought race up as an issue except YOU with your implication as a way to try and demonize those you disagree with. But if race is your "thing" then I DO think mostly they were by default referring to "white dudes", since by far most green card pilots working or in training in this country are from Europe, South Africa, Canada and Australia and the "fair is fair" references about working for their home countries'airlines were also in regard to BA and Quantas, or obtaining a JAA license (European).

You look pretty foolish trying to play the race card when the game is chess.

 

[AviatorTx]

AviatorTX, you are a class 1 idiot.

Care to guess how many immigrants i.e. green card holders have served in the U.S. military? Care to guess how many of them are in right now putting their lives on the line for this country? Care to guess how many of them made the ultimate sacrifice so your hick ass can make fun of them? Care to guess how many of them bypassed you simply because they're better than you?

Oh, and I'd rather work with a green card holder over some ignorant bubba like yourself. You're just like you say... cocky, so I figure you talk the talk, and people like you never walk the walk - whereas your immigrant green card guy won't talk the talk, but he'll run the walk.

Grow up!

Why resort to name calling, Numbnuts?

OK... I did not have any green cards in my military unit, BUT I'll admit that if one does serve a complete enlistment, and is honorably discharged, or re-ups, they should be granted immediate citizenship. They have earned it, afterall.

I did walk the walk. I admit to being a redneck, but there are worse things to be called.

 

[Freight Dog]

As long as you hold a green card though, your job opportunity in the USA should be limited to McDonald's, Blockbuster video, ect...

It's not really name-calling when you post things like this, bubba.

ANYONE who lives in this country legally is entitled to pursue happiness. One of the beautiful rights that set our country apart from the rest of the world. Now, don't get confused. You are not entitled to happiness, you're only entitled to PURSUE it. Most legal immigrants here recognize that and are more vigorous to pursue their happiness because they appreciate the opportunity they have in this country a lot more than your average American.
Your average American tends to think he/she is entitled to middle class lifestyle just because... Your average American is gonna sit down and bitch about everything, your average immigrant is gonna roll up their sleeves and go to work to accomplish their goals. I've witnessed it time and time again, and not only that, but I am a living proof and so is my family, and so are many of our friends.

 

[Rottweiller]

Re: NO Imigrants!!!! go home!!!

They should stop immigration now. There are too many Americans out of work. GO HOME IMMIGRANTS.

You are a total jackass!! This country was built on immigration, the only true American (if you want to be totally correct, are the native Americans).

You are just blaming someone else for what you don't have, why don't you pitch in with women, the colored minorities etc. I flew for european airlines and we had plenty of Americans, Canadians and Aussies flying for us, but not at the expense of someone who was more qualified for the position. To even emply that resident green card holders should be barred from certain positions (holders can join the armed forces and fight for the USA) is pathetic. Do some research on the subject and educate yourself!!

Oh and before you ask, yes I am a Citizen.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Well Catyaaak, Race is not my "thing", but I am comfortable with it. And I believe that you cannot fix a problem unless you seek the source of it. So, lets speak openly. I dont like it anymore than the next guy to have someone taking my job, foreign or domestic. I will support any legislation to protect our rights to work. HOWEVER, when Capt. Redneck meets his copilot from Ireland, you CANNOT tell me the first impression Capt Redneck has is " what as a$$hole, he is stealing my job!" I bet any money that the conversation goes more about Guinness than it is about green card. Whats between the lines here is that, when ignorant people write about things like" Go Home, green card holders can only work at Mcdonalds,etc...." , they are applying their general stereotype of lowly trained, non-english speaking workers images for professional pilots. Its not about race, its about whats between the lines. But of course, anything about race is taboo. I am sorry if I hit a sensitive spot.

 

[huncowboy]

It is somehow interesting that in the 5 years we have been living here every single American I have meet was just way too friendly (except that one guy with whom I got into a roadrage but I doubt he knew where I was from). I keep receiving questions about Europe and everyone is always interested to locate my little tiny country in his/her brain with mostly limited success.

soooo... trying to say that if you are a dickinson, than regardless where you are from, eventually people will treat you accordingly. If you are at least trying to be friendly being an immigrant often will make you more interesting and it will be just one more topic to talk about. It is all about attitudes.

 

[Ailerongirl]

I keep receiving questions about Europe and everyone is always interested to locate my little tiny country in his/her brain with mostly limited success.

Along those lines, what's the funniest thing any of you have been asked about where you're from? My sister and I have a 'list' of the funniest/stupidest questions we've been asked over the past ten years. Some of the good ones:

* Do they speak English In England?
* Do you celebrate Christmas in England?
* How did you get here? (Well, we tried to swim....)
* Did you have to learn a new language to come here?
* Say something in the language of your country. (errr ok...)
* I have a cousin, last name Brown, who lives in a little village in Scotland...have you heard of him?

The language questions that repeatedly come up are the funniest, especially when people realise what they just asked!

 

[IrishFlyer]

Ailerongirl,

Good of you to lighten up this thread.

The best one I have been asked is

"Have you ever actually met a leprechaun?"



IF

 

[CatYaaak]

Well Catyaaak, Race is not my "thing", but I am comfortable with it. And I believe that you cannot fix a problem unless you seek the source of it. So, lets speak openly. I dont like it anymore than the next guy to have someone taking my job, foreign or domestic. I will support any legislation to protect our rights to work. HOWEVER, when Capt. Redneck meets his copilot from Ireland, you CANNOT tell me the first impression Capt Redneck has is " what as a$$hole, he is stealing my job!" I bet any money that the conversation goes more about Guinness than it is about green card. Whats between the lines here is that, when ignorant people write about things like" Go Home, green card holders can only work at Mcdonalds,etc...." , they are applying their general stereotype of lowly trained, non-english speaking workers images for professional pilots. Its not about race, its about whats between the lines. But of course, anything about race is taboo. I am sorry if I hit a sensitive spot.

You say what you wrote is "not about race", but rather "what's between the lines". Then you immediately imply "what's between the lines" is racist attitudes. So goes your circular arguments to support a card-house position.

In your childish effort to elevate yourself, you purport know what other people think and assign them hypothetical, racist attitudes to win a straw-man argument....your imaginary "Capt. Redneck" is the culprit in this case. Of course, you claiming to have some magic ability to "read between the lines" of what motivates others is essential to your little excersise, since you can provide no actual proof except applying your own prejudices to what you THINK someone else meant. How convenient. And by doing this, of course, you can smugly tell yourself how "enlightened" you are compared to all the "racists" you imagine surround you.

Personally I couldn't care less about race, therefore it's not a sensitive issue to me, and your comfort I certainly don't care about. "Race" of course isn't a taboo subject, but if you think blindly accusing others of being racist with no proof just because it fits into your imaginary, lamo Hollywood B-movie version of people is somehow something more than childish race-baiting, then I doubt your views on the subject are anything more than superficial at best.

I do, however, I find such unsubstantiated accusations and character assasinations of anyone offensive. You seem to bandy it about pretty easily. But it's obvious you hold as many stereotypes and prejudices as your go-to-in-a-debate-guy, "Capt. Redneck", which is no suprise, since you invented him. Hopefully, if you have a daughter poetic justice and my sense of comic irony will be served by her marrying someone just like him.

 

[saviboy]

I am an American as was my father, and my grandfather. However my great grandfather was a German immagrant and my grandmother was a British immigrant. They came to the US becuase they wanted to better themselves and the US. Lucky for them there were places willing to hire them. There are many non US citizens fighting in Iraq right now with a US patch on their shoulder, but we won't allow them to become citizens. While I will admit we should certainly restrict hiring from outside the US ranks (NO FRENCHIES), I do not think we should cut off our, British, Australian, Polish, and Dutch brothers.

You really think you have "brothers" among the Australian, Polish, and dutch PEOPLE just because their respective governments decided to make a deal with the current US admnistration. Just visit those countries and say that you supported the war in Irak and we 'll see how you will be welcomed by your "brothers"..
good luck, especially if you go to Spain..

 

[huncowboy]

You really think you have "brothers" among the Australian, Polish, and dutch PEOPLE just because their respective governments decided to make a deal with the current US admnistration. Just visit those countries and say that you supported the war in Irak and we 'll see how you will be welcomed by your "brothers"..
good luck, especially if you go to Spain..

ok so how about walking here in the USA and 50% of the people will hate you if you support Bush? you'll find two camps on this issue everywhere. Poland, Spain, or USA... doesn't matter.

 

[willbav8r]

Them: Oooh your British. I love your accent. Say something...
Me: Okay "Something".

But I never get tired - I've travelled the world over and nothing beats the US. Not just quality of life. Not the freedom. Not even the beauty.

It is the people.

Everyone I meet here is kind, polite and educated. There are low iq's and exceptions to the rule, but generally even those folks have at least some redeeming qualities. This is not so in other countries. Trust me on this.

So I accept the views of those on this thread and understand how they might feel. But I am no longer surprised to see concise and well thought out responses such as Ray's and others.

I read about courageous service men and women that are of this country, irrespective of their place of birth. Pat Tillman and his fellow comrades in harms way. This is the stuff of America. For the most part, this entire thread is a big reason I am proud and thankfull to call it my home. Democracy, freedom, liberty and equality.

 

[Skaz]

these are true examples of what people asked me...

lady at tuxedo shop, after finding out american sizes and european (read south african) sizes are different:" well just go to a drycleaners and have them...uh....do you have drycleaners in africa?"

american:"hi, heard your accent, where you from?"
me :"South Africa"
american :"Africa?.....but....youre white?"

american:"do the lions walk in the streets?"

or :" does the rhino attach the impala?"


sigh, guess its ok, since I dunno how ice hockey works!