hiring a resident vs.citizen

[SennaP1]

Ahh Naturalization

Going (gone) thru the process, Alot of paperwork, fingerprints, and an interview with a not so "friendly" "customer service" oriented Inspector. That was until I spoke Fluent, yes fluent English. And oh yeah a test. Take a sample here:

http://uscis.gov/graphics/exec/natz/natztest.asp

Hey I love this country, even have a flag of the Stars and Stripes on my flight bag. So I'm glad I can be welcomed with open arms now. BTW, never worked at Blockbuster (I may owe a late fee there though) or Mcdonald's (rubbish food, their coffee is OK).

Anyways, I think it may be a bit short-minded to call all non-US citizens unworthy of any "Premium" job. Just my opinion though.

KEEP THE FAITH, GO RED SOX.

 

[willbav8r]

So having lived in the US of A from the age of 8, but only a lowly green card holder I should be discriminated against........?

Man, sometimes you folks should really read some of the stuff you type. And if you still believe it, then you need to start looking at how the rest of the world works.

Nothing stops American Citizens from living and working throughout the world. If you would travel a little, you might see that for yourself.

If you cannot get the legal right to live somewhere, then you should not be able to work there. Last time I checked, I have had the legal right to live and work here since 1986.

Rant off

Flak jacket on

 

[crashpad]

Never Fails! I come here to stir the pot and end up learning a thing or two before I leave. I love you guys. Can I have your Bud Light?

 

[huncowboy]

As long as you hold a green card though, your job opportunity in the USA should be limited to McDonald's, Blockbuster video, ect...

Now that would cut down on immigration for sure... but you would still not stop the most desperate to enter since many of them best hope is as good as the above jobs, yet they stay anyways.

I think the original purpose of the green card was to provide you the right to citizenship. Basically at the point, when USA offers you the green card by approving your application for permanent residency, you have met all the requirements for immigration. From here, weather you will get the citizenship or not, depends only on the applicant. In the following years (3 for those who merry or enlist and serve at least 3 years, 5 for the rest) you must show that you are delivering your side of the deal. On the citizenship interview they do not judge your application again. It has been decided already. They simply review your past 3-5 years and look for the following:

1. have you been a good moral character (even things like adultery can get you kicked)
2. did you get your green card in a fraudulent way (fake marriages especially)
3. did you pay your taxes (this one is a biggie)

So basically with the green card, you are a "conditional" citizen, I guess that is why all the rights that come with it.

When we talk about "premium jobs", it is fair to mention, that many people came here on a US job offer at a time when the economy needed additional workforce, and that supposedly was in the interest of this country including everyone who has already been here at that time. Since the process of immigrating is extremely slow for professionals, some have already lost those jobs due to the economy turning around. I think it would be quite unfair to simply tell those guys that: Sorry, things changed, you screwed 5 years of your life but you are still 1 months short of the green card so get the f home because now we do not need you anymore and you just got laid off. All this because the former INS has an average processing time of 3 years for an immigration applicant on top of the 2 years that DOL f_cks around. You can't just tell people to go to hell after they have been welcome when they were needed. Either don’t let them in at all, or make it clear that they are here only temporarily, or stand by them.

Of course there has never been a pilot shortage in the USA so this hardly applies to aviation. I was just trying to give another perspective from my point of view. Sorry for the boring read.

 

[AA985]

Instead of wasting your time whining about immigrants getting "your" job you should be concern about americans AND non-american (residents) taking "your" jobs without the qualifications and just because they "look like a pilot"....

PD: Can anyone in this life choose where to be born before hand? If so, please let me know so that I can start applying for my next life. Thanks.

 

[TheInsider]

What's next?

Ornstein, Mesa pilots, females, minorities, JetBlue pilots.........

ALWAYS someone to blame.

What's next? Or who's next?

Suck it up, build a bridge and get over it!

 

[Ailerongirl]

Re: Ahh Naturalization

And oh yeah a test. Take a sample here:

http://uscis.gov/graphics/exec/natz/natztest.asp

I'd never seen the sample questions on the Naturalization test before.....they seem pretty easy, but then again, I've lived here for 10 years now, and took American History in both H.S and college.

 

[AviatorTx]

Instead of wasting your time whining about immigrants getting "your" job you should be concern about americans AND non-american (residents) taking "your" jobs without the qualifications and just because they "look like a pilot"....

Nice try...

I'll take a U.S. citizen with a G.E.D. over a green card holding PHD any day of the week.

US Citizenship should be a qualification in it's self. Again, it should be a two way street. If I can't just go get an AIRLINE job in Britain or Australia, you guys and gals should be S.O.L. over here. Fair is fair.

IF it WAS a two way street, I would have a different outlook.

 

[7B2]

AviatorTx, why don't you pack your bag and go to a flightschool in Europe and get your ratings there and apply for a job.

What's so f*cking difficult about that.

So stop complaining unless you've seriously tried to get a job there with the right qualifications.

Hey, but what do I know, I'm just.....

 

[dh82dvr]

If you can get the legal right to work in Australia then you can apply to Qantas or whoever you want. You don't even have to marry a citizen, just live in a defacto relationship for two years, and even during that time you are eligible to work. It is easier than here. If you think all residents should be sent packing then all the expat US citizens to be sent back and start looking for jobs here. Its a two way street. Flame away!!

 

[huncowboy]

If you can get the legal right to work in Australia then you can apply to Qantas or whoever you want.

same for GB, or same for Canada, or same for Germany... I would even go as far as to say that to get the legal right to work in Canada, or GB, or Australia is much easier than it is for the USA. Germany may be though... except for EU citizens.

The challenge to get a job at British or Qantas is not the right to work, even citizens can't get it. It is not like any green card holder takes away a job right now at AA, or Delta, or United, or you know who... there is no double standards.

I bet that a US pilot (with the numbers AviatorTX has) would have a higher chance to get "a" (not THE) flying job in Europe, including the hassle to get the citizenship of any one of the member countries, than a pilot from the EU, especially from a non-English speaking country.

The problem is not that Europe or other places discriminate against US immigrants (believe or not there are such), the problem is that the economy is out on a dump mission all over the world and we all are pissed and aggravated... actually I am not aggravated just yet with my 200ishTT.. I will be after instructing for ages LOL.

 

[AA985]

Nice try...

I'll take a U.S. citizen with a G.E.D. over a green card holding PHD any day of the week.

US Citizenship should be a qualification in it's self. Again, it should be a two way street. If I can't just go get an AIRLINE job in Britain or Australia, you guys and gals should be S.O.L. over here. Fair is fair.

IF it WAS a two way street, I would have a different outlook.

FYI Singapoure Airlines, Cathay Pacific and other carriers abroad take americans and other WITHOUT you even having a work permit in their countries. They take care of that. STOP WHINNING. If you have the qualifications no one will take "your" jobs.....

 

[limodriver1]

Finally some good talk here!

Very good , seems like this issue got finally some great inputs!

Yes , most of the pilots in USA has gone long way to get their rights to work here, you think I should turn burgers for 3 years minimums what it takes to apply citizenship after receiving your greencard via marriage , I tell you **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** you!

Lets concentrade like one of you said non-qualified people to get pilot jobs!

Like interns, ex-military, yeah yeah, I mean it!

I dont think guy who has flown lets say single-pilot fighter jets total time around 2500 , pass guys in interview process because they are military and others not...

Can any one argue about that!

Ex-military guys are better fit to SW, or JB with their low times than furloughed AA, United or USAir pilot with lots of time and experience in their hand.

Or intern flying regional jets with 500-1000 hours I think that is scary!!!

And yes there is very good and qualified ex-military pilots for these jobs but not all of them, I had difficulties my self. But then again I served in other country maybe that is the reason!

One more things to understand french guys or some asian carriers pilot can be rather challenging!

 

[crashpad]

Don't forget the Dutch! Man, you can't flame for 2 pages and not say anything about the Dutch! Oh, the women foreigners? Now we're talking unfair. I know this one.....

 

[xdashdriver]

Several of you have displayed your complete ignorance in regards to foreign and domestic immigration policies and practices on this thread. I am quite embarrassed for you for forming such a strong opinion on something when you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, especially when it comes to your own country's requirements.

I'm not entirely sure where anyone gets the idea that the U.S. is "easy" to gain legal entry to. Illegal entry is easy....but illegal immigrants are not getting airline pilot jobs, therefore the people who came here on "easy street" are not airline pilots. The documentation and background checking required to become an airline pilot would exclude all but the most sophisticated and crafty illegal immigrants in the U.S. Hence, the VAST majority of non-citizen airline pilots are here legally.

There are two classes of people entering the United States at its borders. The first is non-immigrants i.e. those who are only here temporarily on a visit and students (there are some other non-immigrant categories, but they're irrelevant). On the whole, those people are NOT legally entitled to work in the U.S. Therefore legal non-immigrants are not taking away jobs from U.S. Citizens. Incidentally, the U.S. government considers all persons trying to enter the U.S. as trying to do so permanently unless they prove otherwise. As a result, with the exception of the majority of EU countries and some others, people have to apply for a visa to enter the US, even just for a visit. Such visa application can take several months and requires that the applicant prove that they are not seeking to move to the U.S. on a permanent basis. Documentary evidence and an interview are commonly required Sound real easy....just for a visit?

The second class of person entering the U.S. are immigrants. These people are entering the U.S. with the intent to stay here permanently. In order for them to even enter the U.S. they have to have an approved immigrant visa. Immigrant visas fall into 2 categories. The first is family-based. The second is work-based. With the exception of spouses and dependents, all categories of family-based visa applications are restricted by Congress to a certain number per year. As a result, there are thousands of people waiting in their home country to immigrate to the U.S. and they have been waiting (in some cases) in excess of 10 YEARS. Spouse and dependent categories do not have a limit, therefore are available immediately for approval to ENTER the U.S. as immigrants (process is only just beginning). In order for them to even be eligible to apply, they must have an immediate family member who is a U.S. Citizen or Permanent Resident. And yes, a higher priority is given to those who have U.S. Citizen family members. Doesn't really seem like the "oh, let's book a flight to the US tomorrow and go live there" now does it?

I'll continue my ground lesson on immigration in the next message...

 

[xdashdriver]

Work-based applicants have to receive certification from the Department of Labor to have their visas approved. Companies wishing to go outside the current U.S. workforce to find workers have to go through a very long and arduous process to find US workers, have their efforts audited and certified by the DOL before they can even think about hiring a non-US worker. Thus the Department of Labor is working EVERY day to ensure that every US worker that wants a job gets one before anyone outside the US gets one. This is necessary to protect US workers. After certification by the DOL, the visa can now be approved and the person can ENTER the US. (Again, process is not over) Not really a case of just applying for a job in the US, going for an interview and bingo, you're in....huh?

The Dept. of Labor is not about to certify foreign airline pilots who want airline jobs here in the U.S. No company would be able to do that, not with the current glut of pilots and numbers of applications on file at most carriers.

Once a person enters the US, he must then file an adjustment of status application with the agency formerly known as the INS. During the interim period, he is allowed to work, but he is not yet a permanent resident. His adjustment of status application will take several months to be approved. Once it is approved, he will then be a Permanent Resident. For the very fastest of categories, (spouse of a U.S. citizen) it takes a minimum of 6-12 months from the beginning to the end of the process. And this person has a US citizen mom, dad, child or spouse. With the exception of spouse....it's hard to acquire a US Citizen mom, dad or child on a whim.

So this leaves us with the spouse situation. The INS knows all about internet brides and marriages of convenience and they try to plug the holes and ensure marriage in good faith as much as one can resonably expect them to, and in general, they try a lot harder than most other countries do. Abuses still happen, of course. US Citizens abuse their own systems everyday, nothing is new. But for those who have married legitimately and have taken advantage of the ONLY fast track to residency, don't broad-stroke everyone with the same brush. Flame the abusers like the illegal immigrants and marriages of convenience.

The vast majority of legal immigrants in the U.S. did not get here easily. It took a lot of work and a lot of time to get here. Much like it takes an aspiring pilot to get from student to airline pilot. Those that had an easier time of it have a legitimate right to be here. They married US citizens in good faith. To restrict the rights of a US Citizen's spouse to work and live in the US would necessarily restrict the U.S. Citizen's freedoms...which would be abhorrent to you and quite rightly so. To penalize a US Citizen for marrying a non-citizen would necessarily be restricting their freedom.

Now we need to enlighten ourselves as to employment law in the US in regards to legal US workers. The US government strictly prohibits discrimination on the basis of national origin, citizenship status and a whole host of other categories. If a person has the legal right to work in the U.S. he has been granted that right by the US government, and therefore by the U.S. people (since it's a democracy). The US people have said that companies and individuals should not have the right to discriminate against legal workers. The US people have also said that in the case of two equally qualified people, a company can hire the US citizen in preference to the non-citizen. The US people have also said that most federal jobs should not be available to non-US citizens. So when it comes down to it, there is still preference given to US citizens among equally qualified people. And quite rightly so.

So, on the immigration front, it is NOT quite so easy to enter the US as some of you think. In fact it is very hard. Once here, preference can still be given to US citizens. However, WE the United States people, chose to give legal workers rights. We made it difficult for them to enter, but once they're here, they should be treated fairly. There is a system in place to protect U.S. Citizens, and quite rightly so. It's not the free-for-all you might think. There will always be abuses, but it is not the fault of legal immigrants. They abide by the laws or they're deported. They pay their taxes or they're deported. They contribute to the well-being of U.S. Citizens, and in most cases take jobs US Citizens don't want.

 

[xdashdriver]

We haven't even talked about the specific case of airline pilot yet. Regardless of level of license or certificate held, all the FAA will issue on the basis of a foreign pilot certificate is a Private. As a result, foreign-trained pilots have to acquire US certificates and licenses by passing the same tests we did. That requires a certain amount of training, and therefore money. So this in an additional hurdle to jump in order to fly here.

So by the time a foreign, legal immigrant walks into his airline interview....he's most likely spent several years and several thousand dollars to get from his home country to where he is today. He hasn't just waltzed in the door and "taken away" some U.S. citizen's job.

As has already been mentioned, there are foreign airlines out there that will hire a U.S. pilot with almost no hoops or hurdles at all. (I'm thinking of Singapore in particular) US carriers, by law, cannot do that. Others will lease US pilots to fly for them for a contracted period (JAL, for example). US carriers are prohibited, again by law, from doing the same.

The specific examples used have been BA and Quantas as examples of places that won't hire US pilots. First of all, the UK is vastly easier to get into than the US is, immigration-wise. Yes, there are hurdles and hoops to jump, but it's nowhere near the same as in the U.S. The only thing that would provide a significant hurdle for US pilots is the licensing issue. The UK (now JAA, so EU-wide) ground school curriculum is signficantly more in depth and involved than the US Comm/ATP equivalents. As a result, some time may need to be taken to get licensed by the JAA. Oh by the way, in case you hadn't noticed, you can do most of that in FL...so you don't even have to leave the country to get licensed in a foreign country.

Just like in the U.S., once you're approved to work in the UK and you're armed with your license, you'll be put in the same barrell as all the other applicants. British Airways has several US pilots working for them. Virgin has even more (and both carriers have to abide by the same rules).

In the UK you won't be fingerprinted and background checked every time you go for flight training. In the UK you won't be fingerprinted and photographed just to enter for a visit. Is the US wrong to require these things? Not necessarily. Just providing a little perspective on the relative "ease" of getting a flying job.

So if we're talking about reciprocity here, don't fool yourself. In some cases it's a lot easier to go "steal" a foreign pilot's job in his own country than it is for him to come "steal" yours.

America, remember what makes us great and where we come from. There's a reason people want to move here from all over the world, and that should make us proud, not afraid. As pilots, our jobs are among the most protected in the nation from "foreign invasion". Those foreign accents that you hear have probably been here a long time, maybe even longer than you. They've paid the price for their freedom, and sometimes a bigger price than you paid. Be quick to think and slow to judge. Take the time to learn before you open your mouths and show your ignorance.

As for me, I'm a dual US/UK citizen. I was born in Luxembourg in Europe of parents from Southern Africa, so I've dealt with an immigratrion issue or two. I naturalized here 3 weeks ago after 5 years of living legally in the US. I am dual JAA/FAA licensed so I know how hard it is to convert back and forth. When you fly your airplane, you won't hear a foreign accent when I speak on the radio. If you visit my home, you'll see Old Glory flying 25 ft in the air. In my wallet you'll see a Voter Registration Card and I intend to use it. I've always paid my taxes and I registered with selective service when I first got here. I didn't come here to steal your job. I defended your rights as Citizens and accepted the legal restrictions on my rights as a non-Citizen. I count it a privilege to have been afforded the opportunity to become an American and I will wear that label with pride.

Ray

 

[CatYaaak]

I count it a privilege to have been afforded the opportunity to become and American and I will wear that label with pride.

Ray

Outstanding, informative posts Ray, and congrats on your new citizenship among us rebellious "colonials".

 

[TriJet]

Residents vs. Citizens

Residents pay taxes too!!

I knew the red-necks would be out in full forces on this one!

and yes, I AM A CITIZEN

 

[xdashdriver]

Outstanding, informative posts Ray, and congrats on your new citizenship among us rebellious "colonials".

Thanks. Had I been around when the first boat arrived on the shores of the US, I'd have been on it!