Hi

[bobbysamd]

College

Is a 28 year old Spirit MD-80 F/O a poor job in avaition because the pilot does not have a degree. It is a doable career path.

. . . but successful only for a small percentage of non-degreed people. The odds are still better with a degree.

Here again, Yip, your model of the 20-year-old who goes from high school to USA Jets FO in two years reads more like a flight school ad than reality. The potential 28-year-old's chances getting jobs that will get him to Spirit diminish if his/her competition has the degree and he/she does not.

Might it not also be irresponsible to encourage a student to go to college who is not ready for college.

He/she should at least give it a try. But the chances of a person returning to college after working for a few years lessen. It is hard to get back into full-blown school mode after being out of school. I know. I did. And the distance learning route does not always work. Distance learning is the modern version of old-fashioned correspondence courses. Not many people have the initiative to sit down and study after working long hours - and you really cannot blame them. Even well-motivated and focused people, much less pilots who have schedules, have trouble working and going to school.

Better to get education out of the way first and then fly. Who knows where aviation will be in a few years? One's interests can change. A college degree is a lifetime career credential.

 

[pilotyip]

Why most pilots have a degree

The reason most pilots hired have college degrees, it because most pilots applying have college degrees. So if almost everyone applying has a college degree, then almost everyone hired will have a college degree. Non degreed pilots with 1000's of TJ PIC are getting hired at a high rate. Go check "SWA and the college degree" thread, there is a non-degreed SWA Capt, who thanks his lucky stars for not having a degree, it protected him from being hired at DAL.

 

[RideTheWind]

Go to college, not for the degree but for the hot girls

 

[bobbysamd]

College degree debate, redux

The reason most pilots hired have college degrees, it because most pilots applying have college degrees. So if almost everyone applying has a college degree, then almost everyone hired will have a college degree. Non degreed pilots with 1000's of TJ PIC are getting hired at a high rate.

Good luck trying to get hired at United, American, etc. if they ever start hiring again. The point is that having the degree makes one eligible for all jobs, not just a handful.

Morever, have you considered the possibility, Yip, that these pilots were hired because they have college degrees?

Go check "SWA and the college degree" thread, there is a non-degreed SWA Capt, who thanks his lucky stars for not having a degree, it protected him from being hired at DAL.

Was someone holding a gun to his head and telling him that he will work at DAL or else?

SWA needs only so many pilots. Having the degree will not preclude one from a job, unless, Yip, management fears that too many educated pilots will cause them trouble

 

[pilotyip]

Out of line Bobby

What does a degree have to do with education? A college degree today is available with very little education. And I can PM you with the names of pilots hired a UAL and NWA without degrees. Their hiring was based upon quality TJ PIC. You can make a $100/k as a pilot in your mid 30's without a degree. This for many who love to fly airplanes will be a fantastic career. And as far as your comment about wanting uneducated pilots so management can manipulate them, nothing could be farther from the truth. We test for basic intelligence, and it has nothing to do with degrees. Smart employees make better employees, they can see a bigger picture. Much like SWA, a smart airline does not let the presence or absence of a degree stand in the way hiring the right candidate.

 

[bobbysamd]

Favorable positioning

What does a degree have to do with education? A college degree today is available with very little education.

. . . . which might have been true in Mark Twain's day. He said he never let his schooling interfere with his education. But that was in the 19th century; we're in the 21st century now.

There are degree mills. You can be anything you want to be, Yip, with a mail-order degree; just don't get caught . . . .

And I can PM you with the names of pilots hired a UAL and NWA without degrees. Their hiring was based upon quality TJ PIC.

. . . but how many of those hired were high school only, Yip? Even fifteen years ago, if you read the "Congratulations, FAPA Pilots" box in each month's Career Pilot magazine, the pilots hired by the majors had at least a couple of years of college, if not Bachelor's or advanced degrees.

You can make a $100/k as a pilot in your mid 30's without a degree. This for many who love to fly airplanes will be a fantastic career.

. . . . if you're lucky, I repeat, lucky, enough to be hired by one of the few companies who do not require the degree outright or emphasize strongly its importance.

Frankly, I'd rather go with the percentages instead of luck. The percentages show that one has a greater chance of being considered by all companies with a college degree.

And as far as your comment about wanting uneducated pilots so management can manipulate them, nothing could be farther from the truth. We test for basic intelligence, and it has nothing to do with degrees. Smart employees make better employees, they can see a bigger picture. Much like SWA, a smart airline does not let the presence or absence of a degree stand in the way hiring the right candidate.

That is Southwest's philosophy. Only one company, Yip, though you mentioned before that jetBlue and Spirit hire without degrees. So, that makes three. Talk about putting all of one's eggs in one (three) baskets.

A degree may have little or nothing to do with actually flying airplanes. But it has everything to do with being educated and positioning one's self most favorably for getting the job.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

C'mon YIP, give it a rest...its getting old.

We know you LOVE to point out those 1 or 2 guys who managed to get on with SWA without a degree..but what % of newhires have 4 yr degrees? I would bet at LEAST 90%..and thats just SWA...sure, they are the golden child right now but what happens when they tank? where else is the non degreed pilot going to go to be competitive?

Corporate? not likely...most also require 4 yr degree, and advanced degrees are becoming more common..

USA JET? OK maybe, but thats certainly not a great job in MOST folks minds (I repeat MOST)..

What does a degree have to do with flying an airplane you ask? (over and over again..) nothing. But it has everything to do with being competitive in the marketplace. Plain and Simple. This has been the norm for what...the last 20 years??

You can drum up your same old rant about DC9 car part pilots and Spirit MD80 fo's without degrees again, but c'mon YIP, those jobs kinda suck. They should not be the ultimate goal of a 15 yr old looking for advice on how to succeed in aviation...

give the poor kid realistic advice.

 

[pilotyip]

G-200 Define Suck?

Your defintion of suck does not fit everyone on this board. I love what I do and feel I am one of the luckiest guys in the world, I am living my dream, not your dream. There are many people who just love flying airplanes, and to make a decent living doing what you love is more than many people get to experience in thier lives. I will not back off the alternate flying career as long as the only input prospective pilots get "Is get your degree first" How many reading this board think a job at Spirit sucks?

 

[pilotyip]

Bobby out of line again

Air Inc says there 122 airlines interviewing, only 5 of those require a degree, that is alot more than 3. Whoops can not finish got to go fly!

 

[Flywrite]

Dispatch121-If this is the kind of website my kids want to visit when they are 15 I'll be tickled pink. It sounds like Colby's folks have a kid with some ambition and focus. I personally think they could be a lot worse off than having their 15-year-old frequent flightinfo.com.


Pilotyip-You have given some good advice and encouragement on here to various individuals, but speaking as a mid 30s professional pilot who is just now getting around to completing my degree I must say that telling a 15 year old to fly instead of going to college is not only bad advice, it greatly diminishes your own credibility on here. Just becasue you got a good job without a degree doesn't mean it is easy or that everyone can do it.

Colby-Welcome. Dont listen to Pilotyip!

 

[Swede]

Pilotyip, there are always going to be guys who succeed in this industry without a degree, just like there are a few standouts in the NBA who are drafted out of high school. They make news because they are rare. Having a degree (preferably a marketable one) is a safety net; this industry is a gamble. No carrier can guarantee a career. If the carrier folds, a degree can do two things:

1) It'll put chow on the table while looking for another flying job; and

2) It'll make you more competitive for that next pilot job.

Given two guys with roughly equivalent resumes with the exception of the degree, the guy with the degree will be hired. It's simple.

 

[AA717driver]

Colby--Welcome aboard! One piece of advice--don't ever say "fly the jet". People will think you work for AA. (Sorry, Swede, you stepped into that one!

As to the "adult education" on this board, I'd rather my 15 year old daughter hear this stuff in my presence than learn it from another pilot in a bar... TC

P.S.--Colby--don't let anyone here try to sell you elevator passes. You can get them free from the front office...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree YIP, me stating those jobs SUCK is definitly just my opinion.

The point is that the kid should be aiming for his best shot at the best jobs -- and your advice is WAY OFF.

MANY of us were building PIC JET time at 25 yrs old with a 4 yr degree already in our back pockets - with apps/resumes in with our choice career companys. (Not Spirit or USA JET)

The future of aviation (salarys, QOL) is looking more and more bleek. This 15yr old should definitly get a degree in something just in case he has to fall back on it (good chance now-a-days)

Have a good flight.

 

[bobbysamd]

Las Vegas odds for non-degree hiring

Air Inc says there 122 airlines interviewing, only 5 of those require a degree, that is alot more than 3.

Define "out of line" for me, Yip. How am I out of line??

Last time I checked, 5 - 3 = 2. Learned that in first grade, so, so much for needing college, right?

Five does not seem to be many more than three, in my $0.02 opinion, especially when compared against 122, not that any company and hiring information that Kit disseminates is credible. Not to mention that of the 117 which do not require a degree per se that for at least a few the degree remains an extremely desirable credential and those who have it will have an advantage over those who do not.

You argue exception, Yip. Not only that, you are still missing the point. There will always be people who are exceptions, but with the degree, all 122 companies become opportunities, not just 117 of them. If you think about it, being eligible to work for only 122 companies are certainly long odds when compared to the hoardes of qualfied pilots seeking those jobs. Not having the degree, according to your/Kit's information, Yip, reduces that number to 117, making the odds for success even longer. I, for one, would prefer to have the odds with me than against me - and I'd love to make book against the non-degree people who seek jobs where degreed people at least have an advantage, if not preference.

Just becasue you got a good job without a degree doesn't mean it is easy or that everyone can do it.

In all fairness, Yip stated about a year a half years ago that he earned a B.S. from Michigan State and a Masters from another college in Michigan.

 

[AA717driver]

No one ever accused me of being smart so I'll weigh in on the degree debate. (This is called a thread hijack, Colby.)

I'm glad I got my 4-year degree. I spend enough time in interviews explaining why my grades suck, but at least I got in the interview. I DO wish I'd been flying while I was in college instead of getting drunk and chasing skirt. Keep in mind, I consider the getting drunk and chasing skirt activities as career preparation...

Get a degree--even if it's in basket weaving. It just gets you one rung above the guys who don't have one. IMO, only.TC

P.S.--No wonder Yip is anti-degree, he got a Masters and look where it got him!

 

[pilotyip]

Pro degree guys

You guys always go back to the if all other things are equal the guy with the degree will get the job. My contention is the guy who started flying earlier, will have more time and better quality time before the guy like 717 who went to college, therefore he will meet the minimums earlier and be interviewing before the degreed guy. Pilots are hired on the quality of their flight time 121 TJ PIC being the master's degree of flight credentials. So all things will not be equal the non-degreed guy who started flying will be more qualified than degreed guy. That is why non-degreed guys are being hired at most places. Of course, except the DAL, UAL, NWA etc. Whoops they are not hiring.

 

[bobbysamd]

Reality check

You guys always go back to the if all other things are equal the guy with the degree will get the job. My contention is the guy who started flying earlier, will have more time and better quality time before the guy like 717 who went to college, therefore he will meet the minimums earlier and be interviewing before the degreed guy.

You continue to argue exception, Yip. Your contention presupposes and assumes that the guy who started flying earlier without college will get the jobs he needs, despite better-qualified competition. You paint an urealistic and rosy picture of pilot hiring.

I, for one, has been through the application and hiring wars. I can testify that pilot interviews are extremely rare events. You should address hiring from that perspective.

Pilots are hired on the quality of their flight time 121 TJ PIC being the master's degree of flight credentials. So all things will not be equal the non-degreed guy who started flying will be more qualified than degreed guy. That is why non-degreed guys are being hired at most places.

Come on, Yip, get real. You hire for your company. Unless your intelligence test and TJ PIC are your sole determinants for selecting applicants, you would know better than anyone here with the possible exceptions of Resume Writer and Lori Clark that companies use many criteria for selecting pilots, not simply "TJ PIC."

Your 20-year-old wonderkind that you cite as a model of success is a major exception. Most high school kids with Commercial certificates will never get opportunities to build Metro time to qualify for your company. Most will be lucky to get flight instructing jobs, if they're hired in aviation at all. Which would mean they will wake up, go to college, and get an education.

How about arguing rule instead of exception, Yip? The companies in question which may not require a degree still regard it or any education beyond high school or a G.E.D. as desirable and advantageous qualifications.

 

[pilotyip]

But the exception fits

My contention is all along, the exception may fit many prospective pilots. What is the number 10%, 5% or 3% of the total pilots that may not have a degree. That percentage of any significant population is a lot of pilots. Those exceptions may benefit from an alternate career path. I have seen too many people succeed without a college degree. I do admit there are some companies with limited foresight that have the degree as a make or break requirement. These companies overlook some very strong candidates due to their narrow application standards. Places such as AirTran, Spirit, and Jet Blue, even SWA are available to non-degreed pilots, where the individual counts more than paper. But then some people think of these as not real flying jobs.

 

[troy]

Get the degree!!!! If not for the job, for yourself. When you are in college, you can expand your horizons. (It might not seem like it), but there are other things to do besides fly. It will give you the ability to communicate with other people of the same caliber. I didn't do the college thing out of high school, as a matter of fact, I'm finishing up my last year of college this year at the age of 30. Attending 4 years of college has opened my eyes to other avenues of thought that I never knew existed. Sure, only a couple of places REQUIRE a degree, but MOST will not even look at you without one. Good luck with your career. Keep focused and out of trouble.

 

[troy]

I have seen too many people succeed without a college degree.

I bet more fail.....