Hi

[Lead Sled]

You guys simply have to have a degree in today's world in order to be competitive in today's job market. Period. Can you get a job without one? Of course, but you have to understand that most employers, airline or corporate, if given the choice between two otherwise equally qualified individuals will almost always go for the person with the degree. I have seen this time after time after time. In today's market, where there are literally hundreds of applications for every opening, the competition is especialy tough.

When it comes to college, I'd recommend getting a degree in something that you can fall back on and support yourself and your family if the aviation thing doesn't work out. Like the old saying goes, you don't necessarily want to put all of your eggs in one basket. Pilots get furlowed or lose their medical. It happens to pilots everyday and it's a shame when it happens and you aren't prepared.

As far as what to get a degree in or what school to attend, I've never heard of a case where it made any difference at all. You could very well get a 4-year degree in the proverbial "Underwater Basket Weaving". However, it probably would be wise to make it in a field where you can earn a living if you ever have to leave aviation for whatever reason. (There's really not much demand for underwater basket weavers these days.) In my particular case, I've got a degree in Business Management. Guys I've worked with are a good example - we had a couple of MBA's, several business majors, an electrial engineer, music majors, education majors, the whole gambit. The important thing is that each of us could make a viable living outside of aviation if we had to.

As a wise man (Rodney Dangerfield) once said, "It's a jungle out there!" The bottom line is: Only the strong will survive - the rest will become lunch.

(The preceeding was an editiorial comment and is not necessarily the opinion of anyone who matters.)

Lead Sled

 

[Flywrite]

After saying Pilotyip was wrong on the degree thing a few days ago I got a PM from him. Knowing how the tone of this board can get sometimes I opened it half expecting a vicious attack. Not so. It was a very courteous PM telling me a little about his own personal situation and experience. I stand corrected on the issue of his education, he does in fact hold Bachelors and Masters Degrees as Bobby also pointed out.

I still say he is wrong on the degree thing, and I speak as someone who has quality flight time, but no degree (yet) and has suffered in the job market because of it.

Colby-Pilotyip is still wrong on this, but he is a gentleman who is wrong, and that is becoming rarer and rarer these days. (And he gives some great perspective on the joy of flying.)

 

[bobbysamd]

Better to be the rule and not the "exception"

My contention is all along, the exception may fit many prospective pilots. What is the number 10%, 5% or 3% of the total pilots that may not have a degree. That percentage of any significant population is a lot of pilots. Those exceptions may benefit from an alternate career path.

(emphasis added)

exception

\Ex*cep"tion\, n. [L. exceptio: cf. F. exception.] 1. The act of excepting or excluding; exclusion; restriction by taking out something which would otherwise be included, as in a class, statement, rule.

The problem with your argument, Yip, is that it is unconventional and nonstandard and is at loggerheads with a conventional and standard industry. Of course, there are exceptions to every convention. But, the operative concept here is conventional and standard. That's why the term "exception" fits for the pilots you mention.

I have seen too many people succeed without a college degree.

. . . but how many more with college succeed as compared to those without? I submit the percentages are higher for those with college.

I do admit there are some companies with limited foresight that have the degree as a make or break requirement. These companies overlook some very strong candidates due to their narrow application standards.

Now, you're begging the argument by way of idealism.

No one could agree with you more than me about how companies ignore quality people due to their narrow application standards. But, unfortunately, that is how things are and those companies are the rule instead of the exception.

Places such as AirTran, Spirit, and Jet Blue, even SWA are available to non-degreed pilots, where the individual counts more than paper. But then some people think of these as not real [f]lying jobs.

Your last sentence is ludicrous. Who said that any of these companies are not real flying jobs?

Once again, these are only four (4) companies out of the 122 you provided yesterday. It still would be better to be qualified for all 122 companies than only four.

I stand by my original criticism of your advice to the 15-year-old. Urging a youngster to embark on a flying career without being fully qualified, i.e., a degree, is irresponsible and deceptive.

I second Flywrite about Yip being a gentleman. But his ideas about career planning, in my $0.02 opinion, are misguided.

 

[pilotyip]

More news Bobby

Just got my latest Air Inc it now up to 166 companies hiring and only 4 require a degree.

 

[pilotyip]

For Troy

Define failure? Or are we defining failure in some other terms, like divorce, bankruptcy, drug use, failure is a very broad category. How are you defining failure? I can give a long list of college grads that did not make it through training. I can also give you a long list of non-degreed guys who made it through training. Most of the pilots who made up the largest most capable Air Force in world history did not have a degree. It has been well established and agreed upon by most people that the degree has nothing to do with success in flying an airplane. I have even agreed that a degree may open doors, but only a few.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

ANYONE who would advise a 15 yr old to NOT get a college education, regardless of what their chosen field might be, is simply an idoit and has ZERO credibility to be taken seriously on ANY subject.

Really. Telling a 15 yr old that college is not necessary. YGBSM.

I agree with the rest of the posters here. Your "college is not necessary" BS is really, REALLY tiresome. Go find another tree to bark up.

 

[Colby]

Alright guys. Don't start flaming at each other. I can see that an argument is fixing to start. I'm shocked though you've kept calm. The ones that are encouraging me to go to college. Yes, it looks good if you have a degree but I'm not sure if I want to go to college.

Colby

 

[pilotyip]

Way to go Colby

Smart kid, he not falling for all this "be like me crowd". He wants to fly airplanes, that alone will make him sucessful. Many of you may not measure his future jobs as a success, but he will be flying an airplane and living his dream, what else matters. Anyone, I mean anyone can make it in aviation if thier desire is to fly.
Coby, I would recommend you talk to an Army recruiter about the High School to flight school program, if you have your Private when you graduate from High School, it will give you a leg up. The Army flight program will mark you as a true professional.

 

[Colby]

Well, I don't know. If it is about trying to get me into the Army then no. I enjoy flying. Aviation, flying, it's all a passion! If I could fly every single day, I would!

Colby

 

[pilotyip]

Army

Colby just giving you options, the Army just like college is not for everyone. It is an individual choice.

 

[Colby]

I understand. Thank you for your comments guys, really appreciate them.

Colby

 

[bobbysamd]

More Kit propaganda

Just got my latest Air Inc it now up to 166 companies hiring and only 4 require a degree.

So, get the degree and be qualified for all 166!!

Still, being eligible to work for only 166 companies when there are zillions of qualified pilots vying for these jobs are horrendous odds.

 

[bobbysamd]

Aviation career planning

Alright guys. Don't start flaming at each other. I can see that an argument is fixing to start. I'm shocked though you've kept calm. The ones that are encouraging me to go to college. Yes, it looks good if you have a degree but I'm not sure if I want to go to college.

(emphasis added)

The benefits of being educated aside, that is really the point. Ask your Netjets friend; professional aviation is an extremely competitive business with far more available qualified people than available jobs.

One more point needs to be emphasized. Pilots do not always have control over their credentials. Luck plays a big part in getting the most advantageous jobs, and, in that regard, one cannot control one's fate. In other words, one is not always in the right place in the right time, e.g. getting a Metro job at 18 to build enough time to work for Yip at age 20, so it has to be made up by hard work and persistence. However, such things as presenting the best certificates and educational credentials, i.e. college, are within everyone's control. There, one does control his/her fate, and one should act accordingly.

Hopefully, the one thing you've gotten out of this discussion that an aviation career requires significant amounts of commitment, organization, planning and money. Failing to do the first three will likely cause a significant loss of the fourth.

Good luck with however you proceed.

 

[flybrowntails]

This is great!

I love to check out this site. "Uh, don't go to college..." I really love it.

(phone rings) "Hello" "Hey its me--the year 2004"

This is one of my favorite debates to read- 'splain to me again why getting an education is a bad thing?

Make it convincing, please, so I can use it with my kids. "Baby girl, its cool-no college for you because... (insert convincing remarks here...)

fbt

 

[pilotyip]

Education?

As stated by Bobby quoting Mark Twain, paraphrased, college and education are not necessarily the same thing. The story of my brother in law and his $200K/hr income as a Muffler Shop owner; no degree, but he got an education at an auto motive trade school. Served him well. A pilot without a degree, who went through military flight training got a fantastic education in aviation. I have interviewed enough degreed pilots’ applicants to state the opposite is also correct. They have degrees, but appear to have no education. The degree does not lead to a skill that produces a job. Education and a degree are separate attributes of learning.

 

[bobbysamd]

Sheepskin v. its equivalent

As stated by Bobby quoting Mark Twain, paraphrased, college and education are not necessarily the same thing. The story of my brother in law and his $200K/hr income as a Muffler Shop owner; no degree, but he got an education at an auto motive trade school. Served him well. A pilot without a degree, who went through military flight training got a fantastic education in aviation . . . .

. . . but might miss out on opportunities.

Chuck Yeager is an example. Gen. Yeager had only a high school education before he joined the AAF. Yes, he was at the right place at the right time in 1947 as a test pilot at Wright Field, which won him the opportunity to fly the X-1. The Air Force sure provided him great training as a test pilot. However, Chuck Yeager lost out on being one of the first astronauts - because he did not have a college degree. Not that he cared, necessarily, but point made.

Here again, Yip pleads exception. Don't count on being an exception. The odds are against you. Get the degree, and level the playing field.

 

[Colby]

Sorry guys I can't take this.

Colby

 

[flybrowntails]

I reread my post and it's a bit sharp. Degree or not--I guess that is the question. I suppose everyone has a story to share--both sides of the debate.

For me--my work uniform would not be brown and gold if I didn't have it. Who would have known--why limit yourself early on.

fbt

 

[Colby]

It's not that I'm wanting sympathy for saying this. But I don't think these forums are for me, sorry.

Colby

 

[Wolf King]

what a fine bunch, you guys are arguing about college while Colby is strapping himself to the shower head with a belt. Come on, Colby hang in there!