Hi

[Swede]

Pilotyip, there are always going to be guys who succeed in this industry without a degree, just like there are a few standouts in the NBA who are drafted out of high school. They make news because they are rare. Having a degree (preferably a marketable one) is a safety net; this industry is a gamble. No carrier can guarantee a career. If the carrier folds, a degree can do two things:

1) It'll put chow on the table while looking for another flying job; and

2) It'll make you more competitive for that next pilot job.

Given two guys with roughly equivalent resumes with the exception of the degree, the guy with the degree will be hired. It's simple.

 

[AA717driver]

Colby--Welcome aboard! One piece of advice--don't ever say "fly the jet". People will think you work for AA. (Sorry, Swede, you stepped into that one!

As to the "adult education" on this board, I'd rather my 15 year old daughter hear this stuff in my presence than learn it from another pilot in a bar... TC

P.S.--Colby--don't let anyone here try to sell you elevator passes. You can get them free from the front office...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree YIP, me stating those jobs SUCK is definitly just my opinion.

The point is that the kid should be aiming for his best shot at the best jobs -- and your advice is WAY OFF.

MANY of us were building PIC JET time at 25 yrs old with a 4 yr degree already in our back pockets - with apps/resumes in with our choice career companys. (Not Spirit or USA JET)

The future of aviation (salarys, QOL) is looking more and more bleek. This 15yr old should definitly get a degree in something just in case he has to fall back on it (good chance now-a-days)

Have a good flight.

 

[bobbysamd]

Las Vegas odds for non-degree hiring

Air Inc says there 122 airlines interviewing, only 5 of those require a degree, that is alot more than 3.

Define "out of line" for me, Yip. How am I out of line??

Last time I checked, 5 - 3 = 2. Learned that in first grade, so, so much for needing college, right?

Five does not seem to be many more than three, in my $0.02 opinion, especially when compared against 122, not that any company and hiring information that Kit disseminates is credible. Not to mention that of the 117 which do not require a degree per se that for at least a few the degree remains an extremely desirable credential and those who have it will have an advantage over those who do not.

You argue exception, Yip. Not only that, you are still missing the point. There will always be people who are exceptions, but with the degree, all 122 companies become opportunities, not just 117 of them. If you think about it, being eligible to work for only 122 companies are certainly long odds when compared to the hoardes of qualfied pilots seeking those jobs. Not having the degree, according to your/Kit's information, Yip, reduces that number to 117, making the odds for success even longer. I, for one, would prefer to have the odds with me than against me - and I'd love to make book against the non-degree people who seek jobs where degreed people at least have an advantage, if not preference.

Just becasue you got a good job without a degree doesn't mean it is easy or that everyone can do it.

In all fairness, Yip stated about a year a half years ago that he earned a B.S. from Michigan State and a Masters from another college in Michigan.

 

[AA717driver]

No one ever accused me of being smart so I'll weigh in on the degree debate. (This is called a thread hijack, Colby.)

I'm glad I got my 4-year degree. I spend enough time in interviews explaining why my grades suck, but at least I got in the interview. I DO wish I'd been flying while I was in college instead of getting drunk and chasing skirt. Keep in mind, I consider the getting drunk and chasing skirt activities as career preparation...

Get a degree--even if it's in basket weaving. It just gets you one rung above the guys who don't have one. IMO, only.TC

P.S.--No wonder Yip is anti-degree, he got a Masters and look where it got him!

 

[pilotyip]

Pro degree guys

You guys always go back to the if all other things are equal the guy with the degree will get the job. My contention is the guy who started flying earlier, will have more time and better quality time before the guy like 717 who went to college, therefore he will meet the minimums earlier and be interviewing before the degreed guy. Pilots are hired on the quality of their flight time 121 TJ PIC being the master's degree of flight credentials. So all things will not be equal the non-degreed guy who started flying will be more qualified than degreed guy. That is why non-degreed guys are being hired at most places. Of course, except the DAL, UAL, NWA etc. Whoops they are not hiring.

 

[bobbysamd]

Reality check

You guys always go back to the if all other things are equal the guy with the degree will get the job. My contention is the guy who started flying earlier, will have more time and better quality time before the guy like 717 who went to college, therefore he will meet the minimums earlier and be interviewing before the degreed guy.

You continue to argue exception, Yip. Your contention presupposes and assumes that the guy who started flying earlier without college will get the jobs he needs, despite better-qualified competition. You paint an urealistic and rosy picture of pilot hiring.

I, for one, has been through the application and hiring wars. I can testify that pilot interviews are extremely rare events. You should address hiring from that perspective.

Pilots are hired on the quality of their flight time 121 TJ PIC being the master's degree of flight credentials. So all things will not be equal the non-degreed guy who started flying will be more qualified than degreed guy. That is why non-degreed guys are being hired at most places.

Come on, Yip, get real. You hire for your company. Unless your intelligence test and TJ PIC are your sole determinants for selecting applicants, you would know better than anyone here with the possible exceptions of Resume Writer and Lori Clark that companies use many criteria for selecting pilots, not simply "TJ PIC."

Your 20-year-old wonderkind that you cite as a model of success is a major exception. Most high school kids with Commercial certificates will never get opportunities to build Metro time to qualify for your company. Most will be lucky to get flight instructing jobs, if they're hired in aviation at all. Which would mean they will wake up, go to college, and get an education.

How about arguing rule instead of exception, Yip? The companies in question which may not require a degree still regard it or any education beyond high school or a G.E.D. as desirable and advantageous qualifications.

 

[pilotyip]

But the exception fits

My contention is all along, the exception may fit many prospective pilots. What is the number 10%, 5% or 3% of the total pilots that may not have a degree. That percentage of any significant population is a lot of pilots. Those exceptions may benefit from an alternate career path. I have seen too many people succeed without a college degree. I do admit there are some companies with limited foresight that have the degree as a make or break requirement. These companies overlook some very strong candidates due to their narrow application standards. Places such as AirTran, Spirit, and Jet Blue, even SWA are available to non-degreed pilots, where the individual counts more than paper. But then some people think of these as not real flying jobs.

 

[troy]

Get the degree!!!! If not for the job, for yourself. When you are in college, you can expand your horizons. (It might not seem like it), but there are other things to do besides fly. It will give you the ability to communicate with other people of the same caliber. I didn't do the college thing out of high school, as a matter of fact, I'm finishing up my last year of college this year at the age of 30. Attending 4 years of college has opened my eyes to other avenues of thought that I never knew existed. Sure, only a couple of places REQUIRE a degree, but MOST will not even look at you without one. Good luck with your career. Keep focused and out of trouble.

 

[troy]

I have seen too many people succeed without a college degree.

I bet more fail.....

 

[Lead Sled]

You guys simply have to have a degree in today's world in order to be competitive in today's job market. Period. Can you get a job without one? Of course, but you have to understand that most employers, airline or corporate, if given the choice between two otherwise equally qualified individuals will almost always go for the person with the degree. I have seen this time after time after time. In today's market, where there are literally hundreds of applications for every opening, the competition is especialy tough.

When it comes to college, I'd recommend getting a degree in something that you can fall back on and support yourself and your family if the aviation thing doesn't work out. Like the old saying goes, you don't necessarily want to put all of your eggs in one basket. Pilots get furlowed or lose their medical. It happens to pilots everyday and it's a shame when it happens and you aren't prepared.

As far as what to get a degree in or what school to attend, I've never heard of a case where it made any difference at all. You could very well get a 4-year degree in the proverbial "Underwater Basket Weaving". However, it probably would be wise to make it in a field where you can earn a living if you ever have to leave aviation for whatever reason. (There's really not much demand for underwater basket weavers these days.) In my particular case, I've got a degree in Business Management. Guys I've worked with are a good example - we had a couple of MBA's, several business majors, an electrial engineer, music majors, education majors, the whole gambit. The important thing is that each of us could make a viable living outside of aviation if we had to.

As a wise man (Rodney Dangerfield) once said, "It's a jungle out there!" The bottom line is: Only the strong will survive - the rest will become lunch.

(The preceeding was an editiorial comment and is not necessarily the opinion of anyone who matters.)

Lead Sled

 

[Flywrite]

After saying Pilotyip was wrong on the degree thing a few days ago I got a PM from him. Knowing how the tone of this board can get sometimes I opened it half expecting a vicious attack. Not so. It was a very courteous PM telling me a little about his own personal situation and experience. I stand corrected on the issue of his education, he does in fact hold Bachelors and Masters Degrees as Bobby also pointed out.

I still say he is wrong on the degree thing, and I speak as someone who has quality flight time, but no degree (yet) and has suffered in the job market because of it.

Colby-Pilotyip is still wrong on this, but he is a gentleman who is wrong, and that is becoming rarer and rarer these days. (And he gives some great perspective on the joy of flying.)

 

[bobbysamd]

Better to be the rule and not the "exception"

My contention is all along, the exception may fit many prospective pilots. What is the number 10%, 5% or 3% of the total pilots that may not have a degree. That percentage of any significant population is a lot of pilots. Those exceptions may benefit from an alternate career path.

(emphasis added)

exception

\Ex*cep"tion\, n. [L. exceptio: cf. F. exception.] 1. The act of excepting or excluding; exclusion; restriction by taking out something which would otherwise be included, as in a class, statement, rule.

The problem with your argument, Yip, is that it is unconventional and nonstandard and is at loggerheads with a conventional and standard industry. Of course, there are exceptions to every convention. But, the operative concept here is conventional and standard. That's why the term "exception" fits for the pilots you mention.

I have seen too many people succeed without a college degree.

. . . but how many more with college succeed as compared to those without? I submit the percentages are higher for those with college.

I do admit there are some companies with limited foresight that have the degree as a make or break requirement. These companies overlook some very strong candidates due to their narrow application standards.

Now, you're begging the argument by way of idealism.

No one could agree with you more than me about how companies ignore quality people due to their narrow application standards. But, unfortunately, that is how things are and those companies are the rule instead of the exception.

Places such as AirTran, Spirit, and Jet Blue, even SWA are available to non-degreed pilots, where the individual counts more than paper. But then some people think of these as not real [f]lying jobs.

Your last sentence is ludicrous. Who said that any of these companies are not real flying jobs?

Once again, these are only four (4) companies out of the 122 you provided yesterday. It still would be better to be qualified for all 122 companies than only four.

I stand by my original criticism of your advice to the 15-year-old. Urging a youngster to embark on a flying career without being fully qualified, i.e., a degree, is irresponsible and deceptive.

I second Flywrite about Yip being a gentleman. But his ideas about career planning, in my $0.02 opinion, are misguided.

 

[pilotyip]

More news Bobby

Just got my latest Air Inc it now up to 166 companies hiring and only 4 require a degree.

 

[pilotyip]

For Troy

Define failure? Or are we defining failure in some other terms, like divorce, bankruptcy, drug use, failure is a very broad category. How are you defining failure? I can give a long list of college grads that did not make it through training. I can also give you a long list of non-degreed guys who made it through training. Most of the pilots who made up the largest most capable Air Force in world history did not have a degree. It has been well established and agreed upon by most people that the degree has nothing to do with success in flying an airplane. I have even agreed that a degree may open doors, but only a few.