Hey Undies and Empty Nipple kids, wanna go to Jetblue?

[Tomct]

I agree that flying 402s in the Northeast is great experience, but do you really want someone in the right seat of your 175,000 lb jet that has never flown anything bigger than a light twin Cessna?

That's like saying if you have never flown a heavy don't bother applying to Gemini or World. Let's face it PCL, flying a bigger airplane is NOT THAT BIG OF DEAL! You sound like some of those pompouse Delta Captains that are appalled with new hires going to the ER...because it is such a "Big Deal" to fly a 767. Give me a freakin break and get over yourself's. An airplane is an airplane. And hey...they can also do what every other legacy pilot in the world does....WIND CHECK!!! YGTBSM with your comment. How can you compare flying an RJ to flying a 737 or A320. Not even CLOSE in weight! H3ll, even the CRJ700 only weighted 75,000 lbs.(MTOW) 100K off of an A320. Come On Man...

 

[On Your Six]

I agree that flying 402s in the Northeast is great experience, but do you really want someone in the right seat of your 175,000 lb jet that has never flown anything bigger than a light twin Cessna?

Trans States is hiring kids with 300-400 hours total and 50 hours multi onto the E145. High performance jet like the Airbus/E190 just fewer seats.

 

[PCL_128]

Emb pay will come up,

Not when you've got a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears Humpty Diddle kids with SJS lining up to fly them for current rates.

but get a B plan...yeah, those have worked out so well for everyone else.

You seem not to understand what a B-fund is. You're thinking of A-funds. The guys at JetBlue only get a small 401k match.

According to my friends over there the 5 yr. contract is actually a good thing

Mmmm, taste that kool-aid!

It seems to me that if the contract is up and they see that some idiot got through their process, then they could get rid of them and move on. Unlike airlines that some of the JackAsses slip through the process and are now stuck to the bottom of the carrier's shoe like a Bad piece of gum.

You sure you aren't in management? You sound like a lot of middle-managers that I had to fight constantly to keep from firing pilots that didn't deserve it. The 5-year contract is nothing but an intimidation ploy.

 

[PCL_128]

Trans States is hiring kids with 300-400 hours total and 50 hours multi onto the E145. High performance jet like the Airbus/E190 just fewer seats.

And you think that's a good thing? Remember, I came from the airline that had a high-publicity crash that was the result of two guys who didn't understand why a swept-wing jet couldn't climb to FL410 on a hot day. Putting inexperienced kids into high-performance jets without the proper training isn't a good idea. JetBlue is a major airline. I seriously doubt that they spend the time in ground school teaching their newhires the basics of jet aerodynamics, and they shouldn't have to.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And you think that's a good thing? Remember, I came from the airline that had a high-publicity crash that was the result of two guys who didn't understand why a swept-wing jet couldn't climb to FL410 on a hot day. Putting inexperienced kids into high-performance jets without the proper training isn't a good idea. JetBlue is a major airline. I seriously doubt that they spend the time in ground school teaching their newhires the basics of jet aerodynamics, and they shouldn't have to.

FWIW, that crash occurred not because they didn't understand swept wing aerodynamic, but rather because they didn't understand that you can out climb your cruise capability due to the physics of thrust angle and lift. And the problem wasn't that the CRJ-200 is a "high performance jet" in inexperienced hands, but rather a low performance jet which is significantly underpowered, thus leading to the aforementioned scenario.

Regardless, it's pretty tasteless for you to use that crash to make a point.

 

[PCL_128]

And the problem wasn't that the CRJ-200 is a "high performance jet" in inexperienced hands, but rather a low performance jet which is significantly underpowered, thus leading to the aforementioned scenario.

The problem was that both pilots weren't knowledgeable about aerodynamics in this type of environment. I blame the company for that, of course, but that was the problem. The Captain had plenty of turboprop time but very little jet time, and the company provided no training on high-altitude aerodynamics. The FO was brand new. If either of these pilots had been experienced in flying jets, or if the company had provided the proper training, the situation wouldn't have occurred. Since I doubt that JetBlue intends to teach in-depth on the subject of aerodynamics to newhire major airline pilots, this isn't a smart way to hire pilots.

Regardless, it's pretty tasteless for you to use that crash to make a point.

I think this is exactly the kind of situation that this crash should be remembered for. If not, then we haven't learned anything as a result. Putting inexperienced and untrained pilots into this environment is a bad idea.

 

[Grimper]

If the ER kids have to go threw any process that involves them having to build the time for 135 mins and then fly 500-1000 hours as a single pilot PIC at Cape Air I'll take them for an F.O. in any jet I'm PIC of. A 1000 hr of single pilot all weather fly is a PHD in judgment. The best part is it's pure Darwin. Those who fail the program will never have a chance try again.
The down side for JetBlue. They will have turned them selves into a stepping stone for better jobs.
Anyone who actually follows that path to completion will be a very competitive applicant for many better jobs. They will have the jet time our RJ crews have with the experience and judgment many of our RJ captains lack.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The problem was that both pilots weren't knowledgeable about aerodynamics in this type of environment. I blame the company for that, of course, but that was the problem. The Captain had plenty of turboprop time but very little jet time, and the company provided no training on high-altitude aerodynamics. The FO was brand new. If either of these pilots had been experienced in flying jets, or if the company had provided the proper training, the situation wouldn't have occurred. Since I doubt that JetBlue intends to teach in-depth on the subject of aerodynamics to newhire major airline pilots, this isn't a smart way to hire pilots.I think this is exactly the kind of situation that this crash should be remembered for. If not, then we haven't learned anything as a result. Putting inexperienced and untrained pilots into this environment is a bad idea.

About as bad as Polenhanke using the passengers contributory negligence as a dismissal for the lawsuits after the CMR crash. And as tasteless as you bringing this crash up, then continuing to argue the point from a very bad position. But since you want to go there, the two PCL pilots were acting careless and reckless. And possibly suffering hypoxia. Even if the company taught them better, they still would have done it because they were screwing around. Who would have thought you could stall an empty airplane at 410, even knowing about high altitude aero? It IS certified there, after all.

Again, thanks for bringing this up. Now let's get back to the topic.

 

[aewanabe]

That's like saying if you have never flown a heavy don't bother applying to Gemini or World. Let's face it PCL, flying a bigger airplane is NOT THAT BIG OF DEAL! You sound like some of those pompouse Delta Captains that are appalled with new hires going to the ER...because it is such a "Big Deal" to fly a 767. Give me a freakin break and get over yourself's. An airplane is an airplane. And hey...they can also do what every other legacy pilot in the world does....WIND CHECK!!! YGTBSM with your comment. How can you compare flying an RJ to flying a 737 or A320. Not even CLOSE in weight! H3ll, even the CRJ700 only weighted 75,000 lbs.(MTOW) 100K off of an A320. Come On Man...

Personal experience only: I had .4 jet time before going to CHQ, and although I considered myself experienced at handling high-workloads (I had 2k total, 600 multi, and lots of single-pilot night-freight time), I didn't know squat about how to truly fly and manage jet airplanes. My first few captains (and probably some of my later FOs, ha) were definitely CFIs whether or not they wanted to be.

5 years later, as a new E190 pilot, my 3k+ time of 145 time means my Captains don't have to teach me how to fly a jet. I've still had to learn about JB procedures, and energy management in an aircraft literally twice as big as the last one, etc... None of it is rocket science, but I look back at my 2000-hour all piston-experience self, and see that I would be a far bigger burden on the other guy in the cockpit. The general expectation at this level of aviation is that the other guy in the cockpit is supposed to be an asset.

Overall the guy with 2500 hours of 402 and CFI time isn't going to be the same asset in a 114k jet, and isn't likely to have the ability to walk out the door to UPS, DL, Airtran, or anywhere else if he/she doesn't like the deal here. That's how many of us see this. As far as we can tell, there are plenty of RJ captains and military pilots still applying here, but management would love to have some newbies that are a little more, uh, captive.

Grimper: I totally agree about the judgement part, but still think there's relative experience these guys are missing that would be beneficial in a larger jet. By the way, JB is in danger of CURRENTLY being a stepping-stone job. (Disclaimer.. I like the company and really want things to work out here). If I decide that compensation improvements or other conditions are not worth my time at JB, I've got far more ability to take my type-rating, turbine PIC time, etc. somewhere else than a kid with only an SIC type and NO turbine PIC. This is what many of us are afraid is really the motive behind this program.

PS Jetblue does a short refresher course on high-altitude and jet aerodynamics that is far more info than Chautauqua was teaching when I left... scary, huh?

 

[PCL_128]

but I look back at my 2000-hour all piston-experience self, and see that I would be a far bigger burden on the other guy in the cockpit. The general expectation at this level of aviation is that the other guy in the cockpit is supposed to be an asset.


Overall the guy with 2500 hours of 402 and CFI time isn't going to be the same asset in a 114k jet.

Bingo! Well said.